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byran
Nov 10, 2009, 11:08 PM
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ryanb wrote: healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again. I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it.
You've got to learn to climb through the pain. When you're cranking so hard your bicep detaches from the bone and your colon pops out of your asshole, don't just let go like 99% of those sissies. Ya got to engage the abs more and maybe try holding onto the rock with your teeth.
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notapplicable
Nov 11, 2009, 6:41 AM
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pfwein wrote: ryanb wrote: healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again. I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it. I was going to ask if Healyje boulders (I don't mean certain old skool style where you rarely fall bouldering, I mean new skool where if you aren't falling most of the time, you're not trying hard enough). I'd be surprised if so, because it's pretty clear to me that most people who like bouldering are trying as hard as they can, most of the time. They may not reach their absolute physical peak due to limits in technique or for other reasons, but it ain't about Matrix style mental tricks, it's about how much force you can apply to the holds with (usually) your hands and feet. It's physics, not psychology.
Bouldering analogies? I thought this thread was about real climbing.
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curt
Nov 11, 2009, 6:42 AM
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pfwein wrote: ryanb wrote: healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again. I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it. I was going to ask if Healyje boulders (I don't mean certain old skool style where you rarely fall bouldering, I mean new skool where if you aren't falling most of the time, you're not trying hard enough). I'd be surprised if so, because it's pretty clear to me that most people who like bouldering are trying as hard as they can, most of the time. They may not reach their absolute physical peak due to limits in technique or for other reasons, but it ain't about Matrix style mental tricks, it's about how much force you can apply to the holds with (usually) your hands and feet. It's physics, not psychology.
Unless of course the boulder problem is a high-ball or otherwise dangerous to fall off of, in which case, Healyje's theorem applies perfectly to bouldering.
Curt
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healyje
Nov 11, 2009, 8:36 AM
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Given we started climbing in John Gill's wake through the area, yeah, I have highball bouldered and buildered in, as you say, the old skool style - you know, where you fell on the ground or concrete with no pads. And among my crew it was largely a solo pursuit so it was typically done without spotters as well. It was a high-incentive, quasi-ritualistic, and occasionally brutal pastime where we did fall a fair amount as I recall. Ditto for way too many idiot, onsight 'WTF am I ignorantly following Doug (Drewes) for' paired soloing sessions with the always inevitable 'root-digger' topouts.
And to those who think there is anything spiritual or new agey about what I'm talking about, nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, it's just the opposite, it's about making an effort to cut through the typical panicky chatter, denials, and rationales rattling about in most folks heads in the prelude to a jump, and which almost always lingers for a brief spell afterwards.
From the posts here it sounds like some discussion is warranted around what I mean by 'limit', and the typical deltas most folks climb with. Take for instance the delta most of you express between what you're prepared to lead sport and trad - that's not a bad one to look at and certainly not a 'Matrix' projection of mine. What's that one about - climbing is climbing, right? I mean talking 'spreads' is about gambling isn't it, or in the case of climbing is it really more about hedging bets?
That sport/trad delta most of you express is a conscious one, and the reasons for it don't require much discussion, other than how it pertains to where you think your sport limit is relative to what I call your 'physical limit'. That's the delta I'm talking about and, from where I sit, it's also where the disagreement and confusion comes from as well.
When I speak of our '[absolute] physical limit' I mean just that and I have no problem saying most folks only experience and become aware of their physical limit in relatively rare death or near death experiences. And this shouldn't in any way be confused with our ability to over endure or abuse ourselves - bennydh mentioned climbing until he developed temporary rhabdomyolisis, and I would suggest you could do that, or injure yourself in any number of ways, just as easily by over-doing it way under your physical limit. Me? I've maybe climbed at my physical limit a half dozen times in thirty five years of climbing and three of those I was going to die, die, die if I hadn't. So maybe I've climbed at my physical limit three times of my own volition is my guess.
What I'm suggesting here is that the delta between your sport and physical limit isn't what you think it is and also that it is way greater than most of you believe it is. Yeah, I hear your denial and outrage, but sorry, it rings as hollow to me as the collective wisdom on how necessary chalk is on your average 5.11. So yeah, I'm claiming there's a shitload of headroom to work with above what you consider your current sport limit.
Next comes the question of just how much of that headroom is, or could really be, at your conscious disposal on any regular basis? And that's exactly where emotional limits comes into play. That our emotional limits are amazingly powerful and difficult to bust through or push up is another claim I'm making. That we play some pretty sophisticated games with ourselves and more often than not they all amount to denial wrapped in a myriad of varied and convenient rationales, i.e. bullshit. Think dieting and obesity; there wouldn't be a 'Biggest Loser' TV show if humans weren't capable of some seriously delusional headtrips when dealing with primal instincts - not that I'm saying you're fat or anything.
Now I suppose I could pretend that we're all veritable Bachars and Reardons capable of controlling our emotional limit with an ease that would be the envy of guys like them, who disciplined their emotions through years and miles of solo yardage, but I can't. My experience, and that of pretty much everyone I know, save one, has been that breaking through my emotional limit is always the key to upping the ante in my climbing.
And I'll agree on the point there is no shortage of advocates of new age thinking, psycho-analyses, prayer, and fear-practice who do actually advocate a lot of mumbo-jumbo, but I'm not one of them. Basically I'm a skeptic and an atheist and it's just easier in the long run for me to cut to the chase and call a spade a spade; to tell myself what's painfully obvious in that emperor-has-new-clothes sort of way if I can just I cut through my own bullshit: stop jumping off the rock.
Again, even when applied a mere second at a time it really does add up. And the 99% thing? It's mainly because I find myself so profoundly unremarkable and - especially given today's demographic - think 99% of you are as well. But then who knows? Maybe you're all the exception to the rule.
P.S. Trad falls I'd count as a real fall? Probably 200-300, possibly more - I have no real idea at this point. The most recent was a 40-50 footer on an FA that's been taking way too damn long (maybe I've been listening to too much of my own bullshit...).
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 12, 2009, 11:45 AM)
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ryanb
Nov 11, 2009, 6:02 PM
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There is an interesting philosophical divide going on here; maybe we can keep it civil for once and all improve our mental game.
The old school amongst us are holding up soloists and high ball boulders in a discussion about falls.
I would argue that basing your gear climbing mental game off these people is a fallacy. They are are amazing athletes with outstanding confidence in their own abilities, but they are climbing well within their limit and have convinced themselves they won't be falling.
The people actually pushing the limits of trad climbing on lead are taking falls. Even on remote big walls: http://www.xpedition.be/ http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related.
There are times when falling is to be avoided..where you better hold on. I try to avoid climbing at my limit in these situations.
It is also possible to push your limits on gear climbs by applying more sporty tactics...by progressively accustoming yourself to falling until you can work hard thin moves on lead. I have found that success in these situations is more about letting go...about accepting that you will be falling at times and doing what you need to do to convince yourself the fall is safe. Sometimes this means jumping off a few times without fully committing to the moves so that you can let go of your fear and focus on the moves...
But I am far from the most experienced gear climber on this thread so all of this is just the BS I use to convince my fearful self to get at it the few times a year I hop on something that legitimately scares me...train hard all winter, wait for the right cool dry spring day, back up the gear, stack the pads and give it a few trys. I'd probably send more and hangdog less if i did fight through it more, run it out more ...
TLDR: "falling is no big deal, you might as well give that move a good try" vs "don't fall!"
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ryanb
Nov 11, 2009, 6:03 PM
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notapplicable wrote: pfwein wrote: ryanb wrote: healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again. I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it. I was going to ask if Healyje boulders (I don't mean certain old skool style where you rarely fall bouldering, I mean new skool where if you aren't falling most of the time, you're not trying hard enough). I'd be surprised if so, because it's pretty clear to me that most people who like bouldering are trying as hard as they can, most of the time. They may not reach their absolute physical peak due to limits in technique or for other reasons, but it ain't about Matrix style mental tricks, it's about how much force you can apply to the holds with (usually) your hands and feet. It's physics, not psychology. Bouldering analogies? I thought this thread was about real climbing.
5.11 or harder gear climbers I know who don't boulder fairly regularly = 0%
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healyje
Nov 11, 2009, 6:52 PM
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Ryan, just a note to say that in no way am I advocating "must not fall". That is a saying I've never understood nor subscribed to - I've always assumed it was a bad holdover from very early ethos, alpine, and ice.
On the bouldering note, I do know plenty of 5.11 trad climbers who don't boulder; I suspect sometimes it's very much a generational thing. Here in Portland we have a bouldering gym which is very popular and always filled with the very best sorts of people who are all sending V8 unimpared by unsightly harnesses or nasty ropes. I will say I do get concerned for the longevity of their fingers and occasionally wonder just what percentage of them have ever climbed outside or could get up a 5.7 if handed a rack (I know, I know, that misses the point) - again, I'm guessing it's very much a generationally-driven demographic.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 11, 2009, 8:23 PM)
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bennydh
Nov 11, 2009, 7:46 PM
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In reply to: 5.11 or harder gear climbers I know who don't boulder fairly regularly = 0%
I needs the Metamucil then, 'cuz I ain't bouldering fairly regularly.
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suprasoup
Nov 11, 2009, 8:12 PM
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ryanb wrote: 5.11 or harder gear climbers I know who don't boulder fairly regularly = 0%
I know of hundreds of climbers that climb hard 12's on gear without ever bouldering. My own mentor, whose abilities are worlds above my own, has scoffed at the notion of bouldering to improve trad. The paths to power are as varied as the stars in the sky.
Push Past Perceived Limitations.
Edit: To answer the question, literally hundreds. During the first two years of my apprenticeship I never fell. Typical falls for me are 20-40' footers because I have a nasty habit of running out things.
(This post was edited by suprasoup on Nov 11, 2009, 8:24 PM)
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notapplicable
Nov 11, 2009, 9:01 PM
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Wonderful. In every sense of the word.
And I about jump out of my seat when he faltered above the ledge at 3:40 but his composure never wavered. Thank you for posting that.
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sungam
Nov 11, 2009, 9:16 PM
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notapplicable wrote: Wonderful. In every sense of the word. And I about jump out of my seat when he faltered above the ledge at 3:40 but his composure never wavered. Thank you for posting that.
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notapplicable
Nov 11, 2009, 9:17 PM
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ryanb wrote: notapplicable wrote: pfwein wrote: ryanb wrote: healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again. I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it. I was going to ask if Healyje boulders (I don't mean certain old skool style where you rarely fall bouldering, I mean new skool where if you aren't falling most of the time, you're not trying hard enough). I'd be surprised if so, because it's pretty clear to me that most people who like bouldering are trying as hard as they can, most of the time. They may not reach their absolute physical peak due to limits in technique or for other reasons, but it ain't about Matrix style mental tricks, it's about how much force you can apply to the holds with (usually) your hands and feet. It's physics, not psychology. Bouldering analogies? I thought this thread was about real climbing. 5.11 or harder gear climbers I know who don't boulder fairly regularly = 0%
Yeah, well Roman Polanski watches Brett Ratner movies [true story] but that doesn't mean Rush Hour qualifies as cinema.
People just like to go slumming. No real accounting for it.
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ryanb
Nov 11, 2009, 10:37 PM
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suprasoup wrote: ryanb wrote: 5.11 or harder gear climbers I know who don't boulder fairly regularly = 0% I know of hundreds of climbers that climb hard 12's on gear without ever bouldering.
Really? How do these hundreds of people train?
Everyone I know who climbs hard spends a lot of time training, much of it rope free and close to the ground. After work sessions at the gym or on local boulders, 4x4s, enduro traversing, system walls, circuits, offseason trips to bishop or jtree to get strong...
If you actually know *hundreds* of people who climb 12+ on gear without ever doing any of that i'd love to know how they train and where they climb 'cause either they are doing something magic or that place is soft.
I guess if you are lucky enough to have dedicated belayers and an abundance of perma-dry local sport climbing you could get pretty strong without ever wrestling a pebble, but I just can't think of any good climbers who voluntarily limit themselves that much...
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dingus
Nov 11, 2009, 10:52 PM
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Age grouping factor in Ryanb?
DMT
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sonso45
Nov 11, 2009, 11:09 PM
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I am an oldster. I did get much better when I began to boulder hard but that was years ago. I haven't lead 12+ on anything but still get up 11's on gear. I don't boulder much anymore but that's a lack of interest and Curt hasn't asked me out lately.
I like this topic and feel that bouldering and fighting the mental barrier definitely helped on lead. I had to fight to stop saying internally, I'm gonna fall. Now I just prepare as I move and work it out. It usually is a big surprise when I do fall.
BTW, Dingus, thanks for posting Herr Johne's lead: WOW!
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ryanb
Nov 11, 2009, 11:15 PM
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dingus wrote: Age grouping factor in Ryanb? DMT
I don't think so...I know a lot of older active climbers through access/trail volunteer work etc and most of the older climbers I know either boulder or no longer lead 5.11 ...
I guess it could be a local (community or weather) effect, the past couple of years I have been climbing almost exclusively at Index and a few other spots in the northern cascades... there aren't that many 5.11 leaders at Index to begin with and most of em (even the alpinists) seem to end up bouldering at the gym or on the dry side of the cascades quite a few times during the winter.
Is the rest of the world really full of people who climb exclusively trad and send hard? Maybe its time to move...
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healyje
Nov 12, 2009, 12:37 AM
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ryanb wrote: Is the rest of the world really full of people who climb exclusively trad and send hard? Maybe its time to move...
Try the Valley, Eldo, Gunks, Red Rocks, N. Carolina - there are plenty of folks out there who aren't bound by our NW weather and who climb hard without ever bouldering.
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pfwein
Nov 12, 2009, 1:00 AM
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ryanb wrote: dingus wrote: Age grouping factor in Ryanb? DMT I don't think so...I know a lot of older active climbers through access/trail volunteer work etc and most of the older climbers I know either boulder or no longer lead 5.11 ... I guess it could be a local (community or weather) effect, the past couple of years I have been climbing almost exclusively at Index and a few other spots in the northern cascades... there aren't that many 5.11 leaders at Index to begin with and most of em (even the alpinists) seem to end up bouldering at the gym or on the dry side of the cascades quite a few times during the winter. Is the rest of the world really full of people who climb exclusively trad and send hard? Maybe its time to move...
I see the world from your perspective. I live in place with lots of climbing and climbers, and it's rare to see people on trad 12s; the few you see seem to be all-around climbers who climb sport and boulder as well as trad.
If other people have different experiences, that's interesting, I'll keep my eyes open for these hundreds of trad 12 climbing non-boulderers (and presumably non sport climbers).
Maybe they all climb M-F
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dingus
Nov 12, 2009, 1:33 AM
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Know several older climbers who do both and I know several others who won't risk the ground impact of bouldering anymore.
DMT
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healyje
Nov 12, 2009, 1:52 AM
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The biggest roof on my current FA project is rapidly morfing from 5.11+ R/X into 5.12- R territory and to be honest, at 57, while I can still do a lot of things to get and stay in shape for goes on it, what I can't afford is doing much bouldering given the overall condition of my hands at this point.
But then that really isn't why I don't boulder. I've always climbed for the triple combination of movement, exposure, and gear - pull exposure out for bouldering, or gear out for sport, and my interest and attention span pretty much collapse overnight. Sport in particular bores me to tears; if I'm going to focus on movement I'd rather just toprope stuff and skip the faux clipping. By and large I figure I have three more years of doing interesting onsight, groundup, no-dogging trad FAs so that's where I stay focused.
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ptlong
Nov 12, 2009, 2:09 AM
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What do you expect will happen three years from now?
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johnwesely
Nov 12, 2009, 2:11 AM
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I am only 19, and I can't seem to boulder for more than a month without my fingers starting to ache, but I have really long fingers that leverage hard on my pulleys.
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wanderlustmd
Nov 12, 2009, 2:36 AM
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sungam wrote: angry wrote: You shouldn't fall on 5.6- to 5.8 anyway, you'll hurt yourself. When things get steeper and harder, assuming that the gear is good and you won't smack stuff on the way down, it is as safe as sport to fall. That said, hundreds of falls. None of them bad enough to do more than make me a little slow for a few days. The only fall I've had that hurt for more then a few days was this one time in Colorado, but that was on toprope, so I dunno if it counts here. Some people just can't use grigri's *sigh*
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wanderlustmd
Nov 12, 2009, 2:55 AM
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Impressive, to say the least.
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