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wanderlustmd
Nov 12, 2009, 3:01 AM
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notapplicable wrote: ryanb wrote: notapplicable wrote: pfwein wrote: ryanb wrote: healyje wrote: Next time you're getting ready to jump, tell yourself to hang in there just a second longer. I'm not sure "hanging in there" is sufficient for sending on routes where the moves are legitimately hard (ie not just pumpy steep climbing). I can think of quite a few times (lead, tr and bouldering) when I have fully botched a somewhat technical dynamic move (ie missed the next hand hold or delicate high step entirely) and am simply not strong enough to recover so I end up jumping off and trying the move again. I'm sure some percentage of these times I could fight through and send despite my sloppy technique but I've found this can often involve loss of skin and or tendons ... I find it more enjoyable to work a route till I can style my way up it. I was going to ask if Healyje boulders (I don't mean certain old skool style where you rarely fall bouldering, I mean new skool where if you aren't falling most of the time, you're not trying hard enough). I'd be surprised if so, because it's pretty clear to me that most people who like bouldering are trying as hard as they can, most of the time. They may not reach their absolute physical peak due to limits in technique or for other reasons, but it ain't about Matrix style mental tricks, it's about how much force you can apply to the holds with (usually) your hands and feet. It's physics, not psychology. Bouldering analogies? I thought this thread was about real climbing. 5.11 or harder gear climbers I know who don't boulder fairly regularly = 0% Yeah, well Roman Polanski watches Brett Ratner movies [true story] but that doesn't mean Rush Hour qualifies as cinema. People just like to go slumming. No real accounting for it. 
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notapplicable
Nov 12, 2009, 3:50 AM
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sungam wrote: notapplicable wrote: Wonderful. In every sense of the word. And I about jump out of my seat when he faltered above the ledge at 3:40 but his composure never wavered. Thank you for posting that. I loved it!
Yeah, I just watched it for the third time. Good stuff.
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healyje
Nov 12, 2009, 5:10 AM
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ptlong wrote: What do you expect will happen three years from now?
My wife would like to see me wind down on the more dangerous FA's and by then I suspect I'll be inclined to accomodate her as I'm getting too old for this shit regardless of my age.
And just by coincidence I started climbing at a place with a lot in common with Elbsandstein and I tried to go there in '79 before the Iron Curtain fell. My wife and I have been talking about moving to Europe so maybe I'll stop doing FAs, move to Elbsandstein, and assume a grovelling grasshopper pose until I'm worthy.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 12, 2009, 5:12 AM)
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ryanb
Nov 12, 2009, 8:01 AM
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johnwesely wrote: I am only 19, and I can't seem to boulder for more than a month without my fingers starting to ache, but I have really long fingers that leverage hard on my pulleys.
The only tendon injury I have had happened when i was 19.
If it starts to hurt after a month, boulder for 3 weeks then go use the strength to climb some rocks that haven't fallen off the crag. The training guides call this "periodization."
I'm not saying you need to boulder particularly hard to be good at trad, but bouldering at even a moderate level is a great way to learn technique and gain some fitness.
It is also worth noting that the 11's at Index tend to have fierce bouldery thin cruxes requiring flawless technique and fingers of steal (which is why I mostly fall off of them). Other areas might tend to be more enduro...
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ryanb
Nov 12, 2009, 8:09 AM
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healyje wrote: The biggest roof on my current FA project is rapidly morfing from 5.11+ R/X into 5.12- R territory and to be honest, at 57, while I can still do a lot of things to get and stay in shape for goes on it, what I can't afford is doing much bouldering given the overall condition of my hands at this point. But then that really isn't why I don't boulder. I've always climbed for the triple combination of movement, exposure, and gear - pull exposure out for bouldering, or gear out for sport, and my interest and attention span pretty much collapse overnight. Sport in particular bores me to tears; if I'm going to focus on movement I'd rather just toprope stuff and skip the faux clipping. By and large I figure I have three more years of doing interesting onsight, groundup, no-dogging trad FAs so that's where I stay focused.
Yeah I've seen your pics of that route on cc.com. It looks rad but scary as hell.
I can certainly relate to not bouldering for the reasons you mention but you also said you bouldered when you were younger. How much of your development as a free climber do you think traces back to this? I feel like bouldering is where I learn techniques and the rope is where I apply them...
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healyje
Nov 12, 2009, 10:23 AM
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ryanb wrote: I can certainly relate to not bouldering for the reasons you mention but you also said you bouldered when you were younger. How much of your development as a free climber do you think traces back to this?
I wouldn't say no influence, but it was sporadic at best. The bouldering / buildering we did back then was pretty limited to on-campus walls (at SIU in SoIll. - see Doug Drewes on one in my profile pics) and roofs that were either too low to the ground or had lips right on the busy park road so you couldn't top rope them (there is still no bolting allowed in the park). One like that was "Leaves of the Failing Faith" which was a highball flat roof problem we stacked a row of leaves about 12' high and 20' long under to fall into way before pads. On the very last lunge to the top you had to be careful not to swing out over the edge of the road when you fell. We each took about 25 horizontal and vertical leaf dives before sticking it.
All in all they were more like random short side excursions driven by curiousity or boredom more than anything you'd call a practice. We were pretty focused on steep lines and roofs. There was a fellow we called 'Farmer' who didn't like heights much but did a lot of amazing bouldering out of holes and caves close to the ground. I particularly remember one he did that, on turning the lip, you had to work your middle finger way into a hollow, razor-edged, ring-like hole to move up and if you fell you weren't going to get it back and it was hard to get out again after you moved past it. I wouldn't do it, and it still gives me the willeys just thinking about it.
Adam Grosowsky and Alan Carrier started doing a long traverse in Giant City and bouldering around Little Grassy Lake which was probably more the reincarnation of dedicated bouldering in 70's SoIll.
Edit: Found a pic of LotFF from a visit back to SoIll a couple of years ago. The green dot is the top out and the leaves in the pic under the roof are a bit deceptive in that they about 5' deep at that point.
(This post was edited by healyje on Nov 12, 2009, 10:50 AM)
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suprasoup
Nov 12, 2009, 5:47 PM
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Nothing mystical or magical about it. They put in the mileage, the time and the effort.
It's a tough pill to swallow when you're watching someone 10-20 years older than you cruise up things you can't even touch.
In the world of trad, competence and confidence are a better currency than strength.
(This post was edited by suprasoup on Nov 12, 2009, 5:48 PM)
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healyje
Nov 12, 2009, 11:54 PM
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suprasoup wrote: In the world of trad, competence and confidence are a better currency than strength.
I wouldn't disagree with that, but, it is a two-way street as some of the very high-end sport crossovers such as Nico Favresse have shown. I might posit that confidence in trad can come from experience and technique (competence) or, if you don't have the trad experience, by leveraging significant high-level sport experience and initially climbing substantially under your limit until you sort it out the details. You can do a lot with that approach, but you'll still have to put in serious trad yardage to really develop technical competence.
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cchas
Dec 19, 2009, 12:43 AM
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As for the original poster's question, I'm a pretty conservative leader and a weekend warrior myself. On this route http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rminator_100638.htmlI'm at probably 3 falls (two being 15-20+ft, and its not done yet (I'm about 1ft from getting it but the game is still on)
Depending on the route, falling can be a no big deal or a really bad idea. Integrating sports attitude into trad climbing when appropriate IMHO is not a bad thing.
(This post was edited by cchas on Dec 19, 2009, 12:46 AM)
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kheegster
Dec 22, 2009, 3:24 AM
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In my first year of leading in the Gunks, I've fallen 4 times:
- Twice in one day when it had just rained and the rock was wet, both times gear was around my feet so fall distance was short.
- Another larger fall (15 ft), again when my foot slipped off a wet foothold while pulling a roof (hmm...seeing a pattern here),
- My last lead of the season a few weeks ago, at the crux of Arrow. I don't think this really counts because the crux is bolted :).
In comparison with the time I whipped 20ft on an ice screw, I'm pretty comfortable with the idea of falling on rock gear :P
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quiteatingmysteak
Dec 22, 2009, 5:27 AM
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I am quite the exception to Healy's rule. Almost all of my falls have been on slabs. There was no option to let go - trust me I was trying to stay on! Foot pops, off I go. Oh well, I suck anyway. But there you have it. Probably three quarters of my falls I didn't see coming, but thats what makes it fun 
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cchas
Dec 22, 2009, 9:38 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: quiteatingmysteak wrote: I am quite the exception to Healy's rule. Almost all of my falls have been on slabs. There was no option to let go - trust me I was trying to stay on! Foot pops, off I go. Oh well, I suck anyway. But there you have it. Probably three quarters of my falls I didn't see coming, but thats what makes it fun Falls? Slabs? Didn't see coming? = FUN? You sir, need some help.
No we talked about this recently....
Slabs???? you need help. We actually thought that slab climbing should be discussed in an abnormal psych class.
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byran
Dec 23, 2009, 12:41 AM
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Most of my trad falls have been on slab too, but they've mostly been super short since the bolts tend to be near the hard parts. Just a few feet of backpedaling before the rope catches. But I've known plenty of people who climb harder cracks than me with tricky pro, who are absolutely terrified when it comes to leading slab, even fairly well protected ones.
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healyje
Dec 23, 2009, 2:01 AM
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Slab climbing is a different business altogether. More a matter learning to read the texture, developing a decent sense of stance, and learning to feel it. Not particularly my cup of tea - like chimneys, I find more than a little of it boring and tedious. I like to monkey, and slab climbing, like hard face climbing, is all about choking your inner monkey.
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cchas
Dec 23, 2009, 5:37 PM
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Now don't get me wrong.... when I was younger I liked nothing better then a good .11d slab, but I think I sort of stuffed myself on them and lost my taste.
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wallwombat
Feb 3, 2010, 12:28 PM
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There are a lot of one trick ponies on this site but not a lot of Mark Wilfords or Dave MacLeods.
To quote Robert Heinlein, "specialization is for insects".
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mrtristan
Feb 4, 2010, 12:12 AM
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Knyte260 wrote: I have a question for some of the more experienced trad leaders on this board. I have been leading trad as often as possible in the last 6 months and have climbed on the lead end around 8000 feet in total. I have yet to take my first fall of any sort, and am curious if this is a normal experience. My expectations were far different, I guess from watching too many DVDs and such, I just figured falling was going to be a regular occurrence on a long route. I have been leading in the 5.6 to 5.8 range, and have been having a great time on all the routes. Is staying at a difficulty level where I am quite unlikely to fall a good general strategy? I'd like to know other trad leaders opinions on this. I lead 5.11 in the gym but it is an environment where the risks are minimized. I'm also curious to see what the average result is on a "typical" lead fall. I know this is a ridiculous question because all circumstances can be different, but maybe some of you have interesting stories to tell about some of your most memorable slip ups.
I've taken dozens of falls on trad gear. Once you fall a couple times and realize that your gear will catch you, you'll feel better about pushing your limits. I think it's only natural to not want to fall, but falling really isn't a big deal as long as you know when you CAN NOT fall (like before you get a piece in, etc.).
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bandycoot
Feb 4, 2010, 12:39 AM
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I've fallen quite a bit trad climbing, and I think that what's important to understand is that people are typically naturally overly safe. Their fear will keep them from pushing limits, taking that fall on a single questionable piece, pushing their limits above a ledge, etc. For the most part, provided you understand the system and your situation, you're probably safe taking trad falls because people trend toward self preservation.
Josh
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jay590
Feb 5, 2010, 7:46 AM
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1 so far and i hit the ground because the belayer panicked and tried to hold the rope above the belay device
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rightarmbad
Feb 5, 2010, 11:40 AM
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So you were being belayed by a gri gri type of device then? On trad?
And, the belayer not only held your side of the rope but as well let go of the tail?
You need a new belayer!
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kachoong
Feb 5, 2010, 4:19 PM
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Damn Aussies! Using everything upside down!
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jay590
Feb 5, 2010, 11:07 PM
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no it was not with a gri gri it was with and ATC and yer hes not my belayer anymore
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Adk
Feb 5, 2010, 11:13 PM
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Inspiring. Great find! Thanks
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slevin
Feb 8, 2010, 6:55 AM
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I have taken a fair number of falls, probably around a hundreed or more. I have only taken large whippers (say 20 ft or more) a few times and only had a piece of gear pull on me once (next placement caught me).
In my view, a trad fall on well protected overhanging crack is no different to falling on bolt-protected sport climb. In fact, if you have enough cams you could place a bit of gear every foot 
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