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Joshua007


Nov 18, 2009, 6:36 AM
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New idea for route/problem setters
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I've always thought it would be cool & useful to have an image database of problems and routes. Let's say you wanted to force a heel-hook in the middle of a 40' route or set a boulder problem that easily climbs into a left gaston & then out to a right sloper without an alternate route (meaning these moves are forced).

What about going to this database and pulling up images of heel-hook forced sequences that you could then apply to your wall. Details on each image would need to give you distance apart of the holds, the direction of pull, maybe even the exact hold brand & model.

I've found it useful to go back to pictures I've taken before at our school boulder wall in order to set up a problem I knew was more "classic". Just an idea as I can always and only find information on setting that tells me the basics of how to set; feel like I would benefit more with examples to go along with.

What do you think?

[I would be willing to setup the database if you guys think this may work, I'm into web design/development]


sungam


Nov 18, 2009, 6:45 AM
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Re: [Joshua007] New idea for route/problem setters [In reply to]
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I think that having to force moves is the most obvious sign of a poor route setter.


Joshua007


Nov 18, 2009, 6:52 AM
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Re: [sungam] New idea for route/problem setters [In reply to]
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Hmm, from what aspect are you looking from? I won't disagree yet but I definitely don't understand where you're coming from.


sungam


Nov 18, 2009, 7:02 AM
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Re: [Joshua007] New idea for route/problem setters [In reply to]
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It may be a misinterpretation, but it seems to me you're saying that it would be easier/better technique to use a different sequence then the heel hook, in which case the heel hooked is forced. Is that what you mean?
If that's the case then as the route setter you're just going to have to work out better hold placement so that a heelhook is used because it's the neccasary/most effective technique, not because you want them to use it.
See what I mean? It's the same as when people get mad when they set a problem and people skip holds. The setter made a sequence they didn't want to, it's not the climber using the wrong sequence.

But if you meant that the move required is a heel hook and you want to add little tags to let people who can't work out the know what to do, I also disagree - the people who don't need the help don't want the beta being flashed in their face!


I_do


Nov 18, 2009, 7:10 AM
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Re: [sungam] New idea for route/problem setters [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
It may be a misinterpretation, but it seems to me you're saying that it would be easier/better technique to use a different sequence then the heel hook, in which case the heel hooked is forced. Is that what you mean?
If that's the case then as the route setter you're just going to have to work out better hold placement so that a heelhook is used because it's the neccasary/most effective technique, not because you want them to use it.
See what I mean? It's the same as when people get mad when they set a problem and people skip holds. The setter made a sequence they didn't want to, it's not the climber using the wrong sequence.

But if you meant that the move required is a heel hook and you want to add little tags to let people who can't work out the know what to do, I also disagree - the people who don't need the help don't want the beta being flashed in their face!

Dude were you even awake when replying? Clearly she meant forcing it by setting the holds so as to require a heelhook to stick the move, or at least have the heelhook be the best solution.


Joshua007


Nov 18, 2009, 7:14 AM
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Ah ok. Yeah I'm not saying to spray beta on the wall anywhere. I'm looking to allow climbers to get to the set-sequence, have to maneuver through the sequence in the way it was intended, and climb out of the sequence; without being able to skip holds.

I personally have a problem of setting a sequence and then finding 3 other ways to do it that eliminate the intended focus. Our wall sucks too but I still feel that I need some specific help with the issue.


sungam


Nov 18, 2009, 7:18 AM
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Re: [I_do] New idea for route/problem setters [In reply to]
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I_do wrote:
sungam wrote:
It may be a misinterpretation, but it seems to me you're saying that it would be easier/better technique to use a different sequence then the heel hook, in which case the heel hooked is forced. Is that what you mean?
If that's the case then as the route setter you're just going to have to work out better hold placement so that a heelhook is used because it's the neccasary/most effective technique, not because you want them to use it.
See what I mean? It's the same as when people get mad when they set a problem and people skip holds. The setter made a sequence they didn't want to, it's not the climber using the wrong sequence.

But if you meant that the move required is a heel hook and you want to add little tags to let people who can't work out the know what to do, I also disagree - the people who don't need the help don't want the beta being flashed in their face!

Dude were you even awake when replying? Clearly she meant forcing it by setting the holds so as to require a heelhook to stick the move, or at least have the heelhook be the best solution.
In which case read the second part of my reply.


The problem I have with this whole thing is having set ways to do a problem. What can be the best way for the vast majority of people can often be the not-best way for some. I'd say the majority of sequences are to some degree height/strength/flexibility dependant. I'm a big fan of setting a route with moves in mind, but you can't call it wrong when people do it differently. Put the blinkers on by saying "please do the move this way" will just make peoples technique shitty.


subantz


Nov 18, 2009, 7:20 AM
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Re: [sungam] New idea for route/problem setters [In reply to]
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Magnus, I good routesetter can make forced moves. Now a great routesetter knows what needs to be done to force those moves. For an example a heel hook is easy. Try to force a rose move that shit is hard. You need more practice OP. It all gets better with practice. It is good that you are not vomiting holds on a wall. A good route setter also keeps the grade through out a climb. If you want to set up a database great dont let these chalk bags stop you. Besides if the moves are forced. It may help lesser setter to catch on quicker. I could also use it if I had setters block or was just beinfg LAZY


I_do


Nov 18, 2009, 7:22 AM
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Re: [sungam] New idea for route/problem setters [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
I_do wrote:
sungam wrote:
It may be a misinterpretation, but it seems to me you're saying that it would be easier/better technique to use a different sequence then the heel hook, in which case the heel hooked is forced. Is that what you mean?
If that's the case then as the route setter you're just going to have to work out better hold placement so that a heelhook is used because it's the neccasary/most effective technique, not because you want them to use it.

See what I mean? It's the same as when people get mad when they set a problem and people skip holds. The setter made a sequence they didn't want to, it's not the climber using the wrong sequence.

But if you meant that the move required is a heel hook and you want to add little tags to let people who can't work out the know what to do, I also disagree - the people who don't need the help don't want the beta being flashed in their face!

Dude were you even awake when replying? Clearly she meant forcing it by setting the holds so as to require a heelhook to stick the move, or at least have the heelhook be the best solution.
In which case read the second part of my reply.


The problem I have with this whole thing is having set ways to do a problem. What can be the best way for the vast majority of people can often be the not-best way for some. I'd say the majority of sequences are to some degree height/strength/flexibility dependant. I'm a big fan of setting a route with moves in mind, but you can't call it wrong when people do it differently. Put the blinkers on by saying "please do the move this way" will just make peoples technique shitty.

One of us is a retard and the other a fool. The part I bolded is exactly what forcing a move means, I'm sure the setter doesn't go around telling people they have to do a heel hook...


sungam


Nov 18, 2009, 7:28 AM
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I_do wrote:
sungam wrote:
I_do wrote:
sungam wrote:
It may be a misinterpretation, but it seems to me you're saying that it would be easier/better technique to use a different sequence then the heel hook, in which case the heel hooked is forced. Is that what you mean?
If that's the case then as the route setter you're just going to have to work out better hold placement so that a heelhook is used because it's the neccasary/most effective technique, not because you want them to use it.

See what I mean? It's the same as when people get mad when they set a problem and people skip holds. The setter made a sequence they didn't want to, it's not the climber using the wrong sequence.

But if you meant that the move required is a heel hook and you want to add little tags to let people who can't work out the know what to do, I also disagree - the people who don't need the help don't want the beta being flashed in their face!

Dude were you even awake when replying? Clearly she meant forcing it by setting the holds so as to require a heelhook to stick the move, or at least have the heelhook be the best solution.
In which case read the second part of my reply.


The problem I have with this whole thing is having set ways to do a problem. What can be the best way for the vast majority of people can often be the not-best way for some. I'd say the majority of sequences are to some degree height/strength/flexibility dependant. I'm a big fan of setting a route with moves in mind, but you can't call it wrong when people do it differently. Put the blinkers on by saying "please do the move this way" will just make peoples technique shitty.

One of us is a retard and the other a fool. The part I bolded is exactly what forcing a move means, I'm sure the setter doesn't go around telling people they have to do a heel hook...
Okay, that's sorted then. I was simply confused by the wording of the OP.


To the OP - it's shitty you only have jugs. Are you serious that the gym owner won't get more holds? Are they really that stupid? (I wouldn't go to a jug-only gym and I suspect most climbers wouldn't either).


petsfed


Nov 18, 2009, 7:40 AM
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Re: [subantz] New idea for route/problem setters [In reply to]
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subantz wrote:
Try to force a rose move that shit is hard.

One and two finger pockets. Make sure that getting the sequence wrong renders the problem 4 or more grades harder than the stated grade.

Forcing moves is easy: try other approaches, and remove the holds that allow those.


I_do


Nov 18, 2009, 7:49 AM
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Re: [sungam] New idea for route/problem setters [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
I_do wrote:
sungam wrote:
I_do wrote:
sungam wrote:
It may be a misinterpretation, but it seems to me you're saying that it would be easier/better technique to use a different sequence then the heel hook, in which case the heel hooked is forced. Is that what you mean?
If that's the case then as the route setter you're just going to have to work out better hold placement so that a heelhook is used because it's the neccasary/most effective technique, not because you want them to use it.

See what I mean? It's the same as when people get mad when they set a problem and people skip holds. The setter made a sequence they didn't want to, it's not the climber using the wrong sequence.

But if you meant that the move required is a heel hook and you want to add little tags to let people who can't work out the know what to do, I also disagree - the people who don't need the help don't want the beta being flashed in their face!

Dude were you even awake when replying? Clearly she meant forcing it by setting the holds so as to require a heelhook to stick the move, or at least have the heelhook be the best solution.
In which case read the second part of my reply.


The problem I have with this whole thing is having set ways to do a problem. What can be the best way for the vast majority of people can often be the not-best way for some. I'd say the majority of sequences are to some degree height/strength/flexibility dependant. I'm a big fan of setting a route with moves in mind, but you can't call it wrong when people do it differently. Put the blinkers on by saying "please do the move this way" will just make peoples technique shitty.

One of us is a retard and the other a fool. The part I bolded is exactly what forcing a move means, I'm sure the setter doesn't go around telling people they have to do a heel hook...
Okay, that's sorted then. I was simply confused by the wording of the OP.


To the OP - it's shitty you only have jugs. Are you serious that the gym owner won't get more holds? Are they really that stupid? (I wouldn't go to a jug-only gym and I suspect most climbers wouldn't either).

That's cool, just didn't think it'd take you so long to catch on, sometimes when posting on this site you even appear to be able to be coherent (unlike this post).

As to the OP yeah, get more holds, but you probably already tried that...


sungam


Nov 18, 2009, 7:55 AM
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I'm trying to simultaneously write my solving equations project and post on rc.com. I've been yeigh close to spelling if "iff" etc. on several occasions.


I_do


Nov 18, 2009, 7:58 AM
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Re: [sungam] New idea for route/problem setters [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
I'm trying to simultaneously write my solving equations project and post on rc.com. I've been yeigh close to spelling if "iff" etc. on several occasions.

I'm trying to simultaneously not work on my thesis and post on rc.com, I don't think these activities interfere with each other...


sungam


Nov 18, 2009, 8:07 AM
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I_do wrote:
sungam wrote:
I'm trying to simultaneously write my solving equations project and post on rc.com. I've been yeigh close to spelling if "iff" etc. on several occasions.

I'm trying to simultaneously not work on my thesis and post on rc.com, I don't think these activities interfere with each other...
Not wanting to derail the thread here, but what's your thesis on?


kachoong


Nov 18, 2009, 8:15 AM
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sungam wrote:
I_do wrote:
sungam wrote:
I'm trying to simultaneously write my solving equations project and post on rc.com. I've been yeigh close to spelling if "iff" etc. on several occasions.

I'm trying to simultaneously not work on my thesis and post on rc.com, I don't think these activities interfere with each other...
Not wanting to derail the thread here, but what's your thesis on?

I'm sure it's something like... "Forced Posting Sequences in a Derailed Thread Environment"


sungam


Nov 18, 2009, 8:18 AM
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Re: [kachoong] New idea for route/problem setters [In reply to]
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kachoong wrote:
sungam wrote:
I_do wrote:
sungam wrote:
I'm trying to simultaneously write my solving equations project and post on rc.com. I've been yeigh close to spelling if "iff" etc. on several occasions.

I'm trying to simultaneously not work on my thesis and post on rc.com, I don't think these activities interfere with each other...
Not wanting to derail the thread here, but what's your thesis on?

I'm sure it's something like... "Forced Posting Sequences in a Derailed Thread Environment"
LaughLaugh
You can do thesises [sp?] on that kind of stuff? I might just end up with a degree after all.


(This post was edited by sungam on Nov 18, 2009, 8:19 AM)


I_do


Nov 18, 2009, 8:54 AM
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sungam wrote:
kachoong wrote:
sungam wrote:
I_do wrote:
sungam wrote:
I'm trying to simultaneously write my solving equations project and post on rc.com. I've been yeigh close to spelling if "iff" etc. on several occasions.

I'm trying to simultaneously not work on my thesis and post on rc.com, I don't think these activities interfere with each other...
Not wanting to derail the thread here, but what's your thesis on?

I'm sure it's something like... "Forced Posting Sequences in a Derailed Thread Environment"
LaughLaugh
You can do thesises [sp?] on that kind of stuff? I might just end up with a degree after all.

Basically it's mostly on the genes activated in plant underground tissue (that's what we like to call roots) during infection with a particular pathogen (a fungus called Fusarium) that infects plant roots. I did the lab work I'll base it on in the past 9 odd months in Aussie, but spend a bit too much time travelling and not enough on writing so now I have to do it back home in dutchland.

but to the op isn't there a site called routesetters dot com, wouldn't they have much better ideas?


Joshua007


Nov 18, 2009, 9:23 AM
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We have more holds than just jugs, but b/c of the no-chalk rule it's quite slippery using the slopers and pinches. I still use them if at all possible and sometimes when not, so I'm limited to jugs only.

Routsetter.com again provides verbal descriptions of sequences which is good, I'm just now reading and mapping out some of this on paper to see what it looks like. I don't have even enough basic sequences in my mind to feel comfortable setting so I'm just working on building my own knowledge. Setting sick routes is amazing talent (or w/e you would like) and I know that climbing in a better gym would put me beyond where I am now. I'm stuck with shitty holds, shitty no-chalk rule, and a plethora of noob climbers who only care to get to the top and snap a picture their iPhone.

I'm trying to make THE BEST of it though, if for no else but myself and a few regulars.


sungam


Nov 18, 2009, 9:27 AM
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Why no chalk, btw? do they allow liquid chalk?


Joshua007


Nov 18, 2009, 9:31 AM
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I've heard every excuse from allergies to dust screwing up electrical appliances. We've just been talking about the liquid chalk, what are your thoughts on it?


sungam


Nov 18, 2009, 9:37 AM
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Joshua007 wrote:
I've heard every excuse from allergies to dust screwing up electrical appliances. We've just been talking about the liquid chalk, what are your thoughts on it?
Good shit. Barely any dust from it.
Do you clean your holds, btw? Especially if you're just using eco balls you should strip routes and clean the holds every so often. Stops them getting too manky.

Do you think you could convince the manager to allow chalk balls but not loose chalk?
You gotta sort that sh*t out.


Partner cracklover


Nov 18, 2009, 10:04 AM
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I hate it when threads get derailed by people posting who aren't familiar with the subject, have no clue what the OP is talking about, and even once they're forcibly clued in, still have nothing useful to say because they don't know shit about the subject matter.

To the OP - it's true that more experience setting will teach you lots of tricks you can use. Still, I agree that taking photos and referencing them later can only enhance your learning curve, so I'd say go for it!

Just make sure you're open to new ideas - once you develop enough of a range of techniques to accomplish what you want in setting, it's easy to get stuck in a rut. Don't do that! If you find that happening, find routes you like that other people have set, and try to learn from those routes.

Cheers!

GO


Joshua007


Nov 18, 2009, 5:20 PM
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Thanks cracklover for staying on topic hah, rare. I'm definitely paying more attn to routes & problems lately.

The holds are cleaned every semester (2-3 months) and they do get quite manky dude with that eco-ball nonsense.

The manager is a genius on the topic of bullshit. Doesn't climb much, doesn't listen to any good advice, and isn't open-minded to climbing ideas what-so-ever. I've had arguments with the bitch many times in the past over things.


ryanb


Nov 18, 2009, 5:49 PM
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Not quite the db you are talking about but moon climbing does have a system that lets them post problems made with their holds on a specific wall set up on the internet. Might give you some inspiration if nothing else:

http://usa.moonclimbing.com/...board-c-334_336.html

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