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goodluck1
Nov 20, 2009, 7:48 AM
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I hope that the bolts stay. It seems that with so much acrimony in the air that someone will end up removing them.
I think that it will make for a safer area, it is more convenient, and it helps to keep the vegetation intact.
It seems like hyperbole to me to say "bolted to hell."
Moss Island is not owned by the city! I wish we would put as much energy into getting free access to MI and getting access to the Dihedrals as we do into slinging mud.
The person who put the bolts there went out on a limb to do what he or she did. Now we need to discuss it and that in itself is a positive. We should NOT involve the city of LF.
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mgiehl
Nov 20, 2009, 7:50 AM
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I am a local climber at LF, I agree that the bolts should be left. Further discuss could close down MI which would be terrible for those of us in Upstate NY. I doubt that there will be more bolts put in after all this discussion, matter of fact I know there will not be anymore added. I did not bolt the area. I saw the bolts last weekend and noticed the clips are gone on a few.
LF is a great place to climb and there are may schools that use it for there outing clubs. If it were to close down the many students introduced to climbing would not have that wonderful opportunity. I know a few students that started climbing at LF and today are still climbing all over.
On weekends it does look like an outdoor gym, it is one of the friendlies places I have ever climbed. I know climbers prefer to climb at LF on the weekends then going down to the gunks.
My hope is that all this does not lead to the area being closed down.
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freedan
Nov 20, 2009, 1:29 PM
Post #53 of 73
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So the internetz climbers have weighed in that the bolts should stay but has anyone consulted the people that put those climbs up on lead? Some of them are still around the area. People can deride it but it is the best climbing and only real climbing in the Mohawk Valley that is open to the public. Easy does not always equate to it being good. So if it is easy access, I guess then bolt it. Should roadside crags be bolted throughout Keene Valley for instance so it makes it easier for outing clubs? It a natural progression, because lets face it those areas have already been impacted and beginners and clubs use them so...
I'm a local climber too and I learned to build gear anchors there, evaluating and improvising with sometimes less than ideal placements. This has served me well as I moved to doing long single then multipitch and my own ascents, something I would have never learned clipping anchors. The vegetation angle is questionable too. Some of those big oaks have been slung for decades and aren't worse for the wear while it is agreed some of the other vegetation should be avoided. Most every climb just requires gear and a little ingenuity to anchor. A little common sense and education goes a long ways. A vote here to pull and properly fill the bolts and leave the area as it was and has been climbed for many years.
Also, even if none of that means anything, as mentioned, the island has been designated a National Natural Landmark, it is rediculous to think nobody would ever notice. It is an action that could impact access. Let's face it what typically is the outcome when a user group impacts a National Landmark without prior approval?
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cobleskill
Nov 21, 2009, 5:27 AM
Post #54 of 73
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I can do with or without the bolts but leaving a mess or just removing the hangers and leaving the bolts is the wrong thing to do in opinion.
The impact will then just equate to vandalizium. If they are removed then it must be done correctly not just stealing the hangers.
I have only lived and climbed in the area for the last 8 years but I have noticed that the island is not keene valley and it is more like an outdoor gym. This is the most perfect teaching area I have ever seen. I love it for that but it's nowhere near what you get in Keene Valley. Please don't compair apples to orngens.
That said I see a lot of people who access the area because its a great place to learn but make a lot of questionable decisions especially on how they build anchors. I am often more concerned that access will be lost because someone gets seriously injured due to anchor failure and have thought for years it would be a good risk management practice to bolt.
I would be happy to help others learn current standards but not everyone wants advice so I often observe while biting my nails.
Like I said if someone wants to take the bolts out correctly let me know I would help during the week but it would have to be done right! But for the record I say leave the bolts for now.
I think the bigger question is could we create something good out of this. I think the Friends of Little Falls has a nice ring. With a mission to gain and protect climbing access in the Mohawk Valley and Southern ADK. Just off the top of my head. Sounds crazy but I would put some serious time into that.
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freedan
Nov 21, 2009, 6:37 AM
Post #55 of 73
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OK maybe not the perfect analogy but a place like King Phillips Spring is just like Moss. Easy access, lots of groups, trampled vegetation etc. It is not a stretch to think that the same could happen there and other place like it. Then it becomes the norm and people expect there to be bolted anchors at every crag they visit.
I'm not about to start pulling bolts, I'll just ignore they are there. I prefer climbing more remote crags without crowds that take some hiking and just use Moss as a quick easy workout. So I guess it is what it is. Just don't get how someone can arbitrarily decide to bolt something they didn't develop.
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cobleskill
Nov 21, 2009, 1:31 PM
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I think there are some good things to come out of this discussion! There are a bunch of us who care about little falls enough to pay attention.
What if we had someone come to Little Falls or lets say a nearby location who has effectively created a climbing access protection group. Lets just say it could happen.
Lets say we got a board together and created a 501c.-3. with the help of the Access Fund or maybe a local crazy lawyer who climbs. Great guy by the way!
What if we approached to City of Little Falls or who ever really owns the cliff and asked them formally and as a group what we could do to improve our relationship.
Thats what I am talking about. It might get shot right down but its just a thought.
The bolts were discussed in my circle here or there but there is no way to speak with every person who climbs at little falls right now. There are alot of people who thought this was a good measure to protect NUBes so that they would not get hurt. They thought it was away protect access by limiting risk. Thats why the bolters put them up not because they are lazy climbers. These guys did it with the best intentions not so they had to carry less gear.
Could they have done it formally I don't know maybe they tried but I haven't tryed it myself and I am ready too. Anyone else?
Please share your thougths.
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jut780
Nov 22, 2009, 4:17 PM
Post #57 of 73
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jackflash
Nov 22, 2009, 5:35 PM
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Jut,
According to the National Park Service, Moss Island was designated a National Natural Landmark in 1976, and it seems to be mostly due to the potholes on the north side of the island--not because of the graffiti and chalk covered cliffs sandwiched between a dam and a lock with electrical towers and power lines along its length, rusted hunks of metal sticking out of the rock in random locations, or the paved road along its base.
http://www.nature.nps.gov/...ork/NNL/MI/index.cfm
If conservation due to the NNL designation is an issue, I'd suggest that more appropriate targets are the chalk and hold-scrubbing efforts from bouldering the potholes, or the network of eroded social trails created by people wandering on the north side.
I'm all in favor of letting the bolts stay. Yes, every route can be set with either gear or long lengths of webbing, but many of them are difficult to do so. They may be so-called convenience anchors, but so are the huge majority of fixed anchors in the country.
Is this an ethical issue or one of preserving the status quo? There were four bolts on Moss Island previous to these new anchors being installed. All of them in places where tricky pro or long slings to trees could have done the job. Should they have been removed in keeping with a no-anchors-for-convenience mentality?
The only wrong I can see here is that the land manager was not contacted prior to the installation. If the land manager had no objection to the bolts, would you? The climbing community itself should have a say of course, but failure to consult the glorious internet does not mean that the issue was not discussed.
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cobleskill
Nov 22, 2009, 5:57 PM
Post #59 of 73
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Jut,
I think I might have said this in each reply "When you what to take them out properly." I will come and help but it must be done properly! Don't just take the hangers off or leave holes in the rock or your doing even more disservice.
I do question your quick reaction.
I think that this is a great time to create a something formal.
I am close to the guys whom put the bolts up but I also have a lot of other friends in the climbing community. Please don't assume anything.
I think you are assuming that I might be someone else. I have done work in the backcountry but I have rarely placed bolts.
Back to the really issue. I really think all of this engery is great so lets get something constuctive done with it!
Look I am willing to figure out a way to get someone up here to help us organize something.
Before I an spin my wheels is there any interest?
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jut780
Nov 22, 2009, 6:01 PM
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cobleskill
Nov 22, 2009, 6:35 PM
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Jut,
I am hearing you but I think that right now there is no formal way to create a formal group decision process. We need a place other than the internet to communicate.
There are a lot of new local areas popping up and if we are thinking of the future of our climbing resources we have to do more than internet blogging.
This whole thing has made it evident to me that what little climbing we have can be stripped away very easily by one force or another.
The conversation over this has been enlightening and has show that we care about Moss Island. It might not be what you expected but it is what it is.
Sorry your so upset I am try to help and I think everyone else is too or we wouldnt have so many replies. Even people who have moved out of the area have written in with input.
(This post was edited by cobleskill on Nov 22, 2009, 6:42 PM)
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gulla826
Nov 22, 2009, 7:38 PM
Post #62 of 73
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I can see things from both sides but ultimately why does anyone even give a shit, the place is a shit hole with garbage rock and routes so short there almost bolder problems. Its move of an outdoor gym, with beer cans, broken glass and crack sacks scattered around. Who really gives a flying fuck what happens here. Now if someone goes and bolts moss cliff then thats grounds for a hanging
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michaelsavage18
Nov 23, 2009, 5:30 AM
Post #63 of 73
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I have spent the last year talking to LF climbers and preparing a case for bolting anchors at Moss Island. I hoped to present the case to the Recreation board (it exists) of the town. This would be the proper route for installing anchors on the cliff, I think everyone would agree.
Someone has placed (some) of the bolts that I would have liked to place with permission from land managers. Many are obviously emotional about this, but I caution anyone from removing these well placed bolts as doing so causes even more damage than placing them. I sincerely hope that the town approves these anchors and a few more without getting caught up in the idealogical nonsense of keeping the crag "natural".
I have a few points to make to support bolting some anchors at Moss Island. First, looking at who climbs at the crag, bolting anchors increases safety and accessibility. Most people don't own trad gear and I have seen some SKETCHY anchors walking the cliff. The folks who don't have gear or don't know how to build these sometimes complex anchors are going to come anyway, so why not make it easy to set up a safe anchor? Second, considering TREES at Moss Island as good natural anchors is a paradigm that needs to shift. Using a tree 30+ feet from the edge of the cliff is a ridiculous practice; one I have seen nowhere else with the exception of alpine climbs. The trees near the edge should be given a break as well. The cliff is too popular and the trees will continue to die. Third, most climbs here do NOT have natural features that allow artificial gear anchors. The anchor is only as strong as the rock it is in and again, I have seen too many 'wishful thinking' anchors at the cliff.
To those who complained to the police department, I understand your reaction to seeing something changing and I agree that the town needs to be involved. But anyone chopping those bolts would be extremely LAME! The anchors have been place well and in good locations. Let's leave them and not place more unless the community decides to.
I look forward to this discussion, but in a logical way that looks at all of the issues facing Moss Island.
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dingus
Nov 23, 2009, 6:00 AM
Post #64 of 73
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Ah we have our mystery bolter then!
Increasing safety and access to a crag - why should that be any sort of goal? You can get complete safety and great access at the gym. Is there a need to put safety rails up for climbers too?
Make no mistake - I don't give a SHIT about these bolts. Leave em chop em makes no difference to me.
But at the end of the day these are convenience anchors. Put there by climbers for the convenience of climbers. There is no other justification that will stand the light of day.
Pure convenience.
DMT
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kyote321
Nov 23, 2009, 6:17 AM
Post #65 of 73
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if the bolts are to be chopped, then i suggest the road in the photo also be chopped and all access be only by horse and buggy. not the most convenient mode of transportation, but travel isn't about convenience or safety.
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c4c
Nov 23, 2009, 7:01 AM
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access is an issue at the crags that you mentioned in the southern ADKS. Not because of bolting so much as the generous "landscaping" and leaving caches of tools. Access IS an issue at every crag that we climb at.
As far as MI is concerned I was there at the crag cleanup earlier this year and I think that it would be in the land managers best interest to have safe top anchors available. MI is alot like an outdoor gym.
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kyote321
Nov 23, 2009, 8:36 AM
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next time, use chemical anchors for two reasons: removal is impossible without dynamite  and the bolts will last much longer in freeze/thaw, which is compounded by being placed on horizontal rock in a wetish climate.
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goodluck1
Nov 23, 2009, 11:33 AM
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I have helped develop the crags at Shanty, Lost T, and Lost Hunter. I have helped develop the crags at the Dihedrals. I have never taken my actions lightly when developing. I recognize that I am having an impact that would be difficult to reverse. I have never had a F*** off attitude! Impact is a slippery slope that we go down as soon as we leave the road and start walking to the rock. If you have ever brushed off some moss, pushed off a loose rock, left chalk on a rock, clipped a bolt, broken a branch to start a climb, then you have had an impact. Trying to find the perfect point where nobody is offended by our actions is tough to do. People have told me to not clean loose rock or brush holds in the "Dacks" on new climbs. Some people like the bolts I've placed. Where is the sweet spot in all this? I try hard to get opinions, to respect everyone, but in the end I make the decisions I do because to do otherwise would leave me doing nothing. Look at all the crags we climb on in the world. Thankfully someone took it upon themselves to do all the hard work so we could climb there. Let's try to not assume something about people's intentions. I don't climb with anybody that has a f** you attitude. I like climbers because they generally care and are respectful of the environment.
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cracklover
Nov 23, 2009, 3:56 PM
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This has absolutely nothing to do with bolting choss in VT, or CA, or anywhere else.
It also has nothing to do with saving trees (since the anchors are above the topout, and the tree roots are going to get impacted by people walking around either way).
It also has nothing to do with whether the bolts in and of themselves are a good thing. The fact that they were installed without consulting the land manager is the issue.
The beginning and the end of this discussion is that someone seems to have taken the initiative, without consulting the proper authorities, to put a bunch of permanent toprope anchors in at a popular park. So now the DEC is going to get involved, potentially jeopardizing access all across New York State.
If that truly is the way it went down, all I can say is: some people are obscenely stupid and short-sighted.
GO
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Adk
Nov 23, 2009, 4:30 PM
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MichaelSavage18,, Just for informantion the Recreation Commission has no jurisdiction over Moss Island. They probably will never either.
Enough of that.
"Jut780" ...."Justin "Sanford", where do I begin???? How about this way?
I know who bolted, as well as who was consulted about the bolts...I think
I do know that a few bolts were to replace the existing 20y/o bolts. I know who drilled them as well. Permission wasn't asked then either.
I do know that FA's were contacted on a few as well.
Was I contacted about them...? Maybe.  Anyone who knows me knows I am not a huge lover of bolts yet I do understand how they can be important to an area.
To the ecologist/climbing do gooder: Can you really be both?
Anyone who climbs at MI does violates the rules of walking on the island. There is not one trail to the top of the crag anywhere that has been authorized by the "Land Manager" None of the trails leading to the top of the crag are in the land managment profile. NONE! Notice none that we walk on are marked.
Thank you very much to those that did the bolting and the leg work.
The bolting will reduce the effects of slings on small oaks and shrubs that have been used historically for anchors.
I do know of several schrubs as well as trees that have died within the past 20 years there. These new bolts will prevent this from happening in the future again. They will also preserve the integrity of the rock for the islands moss to grow.
I hope these bolts stay. If you don't like the bolts I ask that you leave them and not use them. The island is not "Bolted to Hell". Catchy title though.
I have not actually counted the bolts yet I have seen everyone of them but will count them tomorrow. If 20 bolts were added, some at existing bolted spots due to age, that means that how many new climbs were actually bolted? Max of 10 but more like 6?
I do know that HJG was bolted. Have you ever set up HJG? I bet probably not! It's an area of bad rock , at least as compared to the rest of the crag and has severely flairing cracks. If bolts make it safer and they do on this route, it's Ok with me as well as it is with several other locals and frequent visitors that I know.
Notice I did not say climbers that visit here often. To those frequent flyers that come from other areas please don't take offense. I love climbing here with you. You can climb on my rope anytime!
I just called 4 neighbors, I live in the City itself, that do not climb yet visit the island regularly and asked them about their feelings. One said I could care less and the other three said if it makes it safer for the majority and lessens the city's liability do it! 
I did notice that a few hangers have been removed. Who did this is a question. It could be by a chopper/jerk or it could have been by a local teen looking for a new keychain trinket.
MI is a climbing gem. Some refer to it as an outdoor gym. The tallest point being almost 60" tall. There are problems that challenge the beginner all the way to the 5.12 climber. Many of these are heavily sand bagged. Try Cane Crack 5.5 for instance or even Peach Fuzz 5.7. In total there are over 120 climbs some of having several variations here.
It looks like at least here there is only one person who really objects to the new bolts. Please don't continue to make this an issue for those of us that enjoy the island. I bet many of you forget to actually pay to climb but think you should have a say? Come on!!! Yes the City has the right to collect a fee from you to climb here. The fee is not much to ask.
BTW: You're welcome for the picnic tables and the port-a-pot.  With any luck they will return next year.
(This post was edited by Adk on Nov 29, 2009, 5:30 PM)
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gulla826
Nov 23, 2009, 4:48 PM
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Well I can see your point, and it may have been a bit wordy due to a few drinks but none the less the facts remain the same...
The rock is of very poor quality with very short routes, and although I have met some very cool and knowledgeable climbers there, the influx of completely incompetent climbers is a bit scary although there are much worse places. Also people (non-climbers seemingly) tend to use the area as their "party" and "dumping" grounds ( I have on countless occasions brought out bags of trash and broken glass). I do realize that yourself and other locals cherish this area, and believe the efforts taken this year such as the clean up and the planting of the trees where great steps in the right direction.
With that said, the area is not ecologically significant enough that TRing CORRECTLY off a tree is a problem, but at the same time the bolts will keep a first timer from decking. Like I said I could really care a less about the bolts, but who ever should have probably taken a better path in doing so (again the path taken doesn't really bother me). But hey lets be honest this place is a glorified outdoor climbing gym if not a town park. In all honesty I think places like this are important, so that places like Wallface stay as they are. I'm really not trying to hate on the place as I used to climb there all the time.
I am not at all referring to the routes down the way at the dihedrals.
After taking a sober look at this I have no clue why I decided to post that anyways have I have no real opinion on the bolt matter and in no real way meant to offend anyone especially those I tend to climb with on a regular or occasional basis.
I'd be delighted to give your route a shot, next season, as I now have my sights on the upcoming ice season, and I don't consider anything a send unless its done on lead, and I am not one of those climbers who is predicated on grades, I've sent 10s and whipped off 7s ..
And i'm not at all a teacher, in fact I'm still a student..
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Adk
Nov 23, 2009, 5:27 PM
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gulla826 wrote: Well I can see your point, and it may have been a bit wordy due to a few drinks but none the less the facts remain the same... The rock is of very poor quality with very short routes,..
Most would say the rock is of good quality and generally clean. gulla826 wrote: the influx of completely incompetent climbers is a bit scary although there are much worse places. ..
gulla826 wrote: Also people (non-climbers seemingly) tend to use the area as their "party" and "dumping" grounds ( I have on countless occasions brought out bags of trash and broken glass). ,..
Unsupervised children do do terrible things but most of us who climb there realize it's not as bad as you are painting it to be.
gulla826 wrote: I do realize that yourself and other locals cherish this area, and believe the efforts taken this year such as the clean up and the planting of the trees where great steps in the right direction.
gulla826 wrote: With that said, the area is not ecologically significant enough that TRing CORRECTLY off a tree is a problem, but at the same time the bolts will keep a first timer from decking. ..
Well said.
Thanks for the response.
My appologies for misquoting your job. Though you did tell me at one time. Have a good night.
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