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Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09
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majid_sabet


Nov 21, 2009, 6:24 PM
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Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09
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Not sure if this accident was posted in RC but I picked it up from another site.

http://www.summitpost.org/...belisk-Accident.html


onrockandice


Nov 21, 2009, 7:46 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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All possible respect to friends and family to be sure but what was the cause of death?

From the report the actual cause of death isn't given. Did she inadvertantly hang herself? Did she strike her head? The mention of froth on her lips makes me wonder if it was heart trauma and the author mentions her not being herself before the climb.


kobaz


Nov 21, 2009, 8:58 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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Very very sad. Condolences to family and friends.

The reported signs of trauma at her neck are frightening. Her whole body weight apparently supported by a sling on/around her neck?

If that is what happened, this isn't the first time that a death has occurred from being strangled by one's own gear sling. I distinctly remember an accident at eldorado canyon under the same circumstances.


onrockandice


Nov 21, 2009, 9:16 PM
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Re: [kobaz] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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If that is the C.O.D. then I think I'm done putting crap around my neck. Forget it. Not worth it. I mean that's freaky. You've got cams, nuts, slings all things meant to grab rock on something around your neck and chest. I see 1000 ways to suffocate here.

I remember not too long back I was sliding down a boulder and a stopper caught in a crack and I was stuck fast until I figured out what was going on. Time to get me a massive harness and put all of it at waist level. To freaky.

Trying to stay on topic here and still curious to know the exact cause of death from someone close to this. Again, I cannot possibly express my respect for those close to this. We all can climb safer though when we know all the details. FWIW


(This post was edited by onrockandice on Nov 21, 2009, 9:18 PM)


ClimbClimb


Nov 22, 2009, 6:39 AM
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Re: [onrockandice] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:
Trying to stay on topic here and still curious to know the exact cause of death from someone close to this. Again, I cannot possibly express my respect for those close to this. We all can climb safer though when we know all the details. FWIW

I think it is quite clear from the description -- either traumatic asphyxiation or severed spinal cord. I'm not sure where any of the comments about heart attacks or premonitions come from, this seems terribly -- but undeniably -- straightforward.

Condolences to tho friends and family..


Partner j_ung


Nov 22, 2009, 7:48 AM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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This is horrible. Definitely a climber's worst nightmare to be involved in something like this so far from assistance.

In regard to gut feelings... I don't give any credence to notions that impending disaster causes people to have gut feelings that, had they only been heeded, would have avoided the accident. However, if we turn the cause-effect relationship around and say that our apprehension affects our performance -- and then somehow contributes to an accident, well, I think we can all agree that's possible. I have certainly backed off many a climb in the face of my own doubts.


kobaz


Nov 22, 2009, 11:19 PM
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Re: [onrockandice] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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The other accident of reference, where a gear sling was involved.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...i?post=925719#925719

Edited to make clickable.


(This post was edited by kobaz on Nov 22, 2009, 11:19 PM)


patto


Nov 23, 2009, 4:39 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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I've never understood gear slings. This further compounds my issues with them.

Freak accident.


majid_sabet


Nov 23, 2009, 9:37 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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This accident was among the most unusual cases have read in years . It clearly shows how knowledge of escape belay, rescue skill (in this case recovery) played off. Not that it made much of different at the end however,it is important to note that: the extra haul rope made the difference by allowing him to reach her on the wall.

it is also important to remember that in such event, the climber who is going to lead and assess the situation should carry, extra slings, cords, biners, pros, webbing .... and so fort cause you never know what to expect.

MS

from the report

At the top of the gully, she had exited right and climbed up and right over steep slabs about 10 feet to a tied-off knob. Much of this face was very modestly featured, and conspicuously lacking the copious chickenheads we had found on the first pitch far below. She was now resting about 20 feet to the right and slightly down from this last piece. She was oriented vertically with her back to me, and I could see a piece fixed to the rock directly above her. One arm was thrust upward and she was leaning against the wall. I continued to call out to her in as calm a voice as I could muster, trying to reassure her (and myself) that everything was going to be OK. I climbed up to clip the top piece, then down-climbed and proceeded to traverse out to her on steep and surprisingly blank friction, with a few small footholds for balance. As I got to within 10 feet of her, David called out from below that I was now out of rope; Iíd misjudged the rope length and now couldnít reach her. I inched back to the left to more secure footholds, tied into the haul line, climbed back up to the high knob and clipped it. After David put me on belay with the haul line, I untied from the lead rope and traversed back out. Itís hard to remember exactly, but by this point at least 30 minutes had passed since the fall.


bkalaska


Nov 23, 2009, 10:24 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
however,it is important to note that: the extra haul rope made the difference by allowing him to reach her on the wall.

I have to disagree. In my reading the "rescuer" put themself and their partner in a hazardous situation by only clipping one piece with the hual line. That is not adaquate protection normally, and is unacceptable on a rescue. In addition the leader was past half rope. Why the rescuer thought they could get to them and effect a rescue is confusing to me.

I am sorry for all those involved in the tragedy. I respect the rescuer's skills, and agree that they helped get down safely, but I think that they probably did not have formal self rescue training, and it could have made a difference in similar situations, and kept the rescuers safer in this situation.


majid_sabet


Nov 23, 2009, 11:07 AM
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Re: [bkalaska] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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bkalaska wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
however,it is important to note that: the extra haul rope made the difference by allowing him to reach her on the wall.

I have to disagree. In my reading the "rescuer" put themself and their partner in a hazardous situation by only clipping one piece with the hual line. That is not adaquate protection normally, and is unacceptable on a rescue. In addition the leader was past half rope. Why the rescuer thought they could get to them and effect a rescue is confusing to me.

I am sorry for all those involved in the tragedy. I respect the rescuer's skills, and agree that they helped get down safely, but I think that they probably did not have formal self rescue training, and it could have made a difference in similar situations, and kept the rescuers safer in this situation.

Well

If I had to go and rescue someone as a rescuer then I would follow your recommendation however, he was not a rescuer but a climbing partner and climbing partners during real world situation do unusual stuff that is not in the book.

Did he jeopardize his own life ? may be
Was he able to do it better by securing himself ? again we do not know however, when someone is hanging on their neck, every breath counts but I am sure that I would had done the exact same thing up there to save my partner. May be little different but as fastest I could and without any delay.


milesenoell


Nov 23, 2009, 12:50 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
This accident was among the most unusual cases have read in years . It clearly shows how knowledge of escape belay, rescue skill (in this case recovery) played off. Not that it made much of different at the end however,it is important to note that: the extra haul rope made the difference by allowing him to reach her on the wall.

it is also important to remember that in such event, the climber who is going to lead and assess the situation should carry, extra slings, cords, biners, pros, webbing .... and so fort cause you never know what to expect.

MS

from the report

At the top of the gully, she had exited right and climbed up and right over steep slabs about 10 feet to a tied-off knob. Much of this face was very modestly featured, and conspicuously lacking the copious chickenheads we had found on the first pitch far below. She was now resting about 20 feet to the right and slightly down from this last piece. She was oriented vertically with her back to me, and I could see a piece fixed to the rock directly above her. One arm was thrust upward and she was leaning against the wall. I continued to call out to her in as calm a voice as I could muster, trying to reassure her (and myself) that everything was going to be OK. I climbed up to clip the top piece, then down-climbed and proceeded to traverse out to her on steep and surprisingly blank friction, with a few small footholds for balance. As I got to within 10 feet of her, David called out from below that I was now out of rope; Iíd misjudged the rope length and now couldnít reach her. I inched back to the left to more secure footholds, tied into the haul line, climbed back up to the high knob and clipped it. After David put me on belay with the haul line, I untied from the lead rope and traversed back out. Itís hard to remember exactly, but by this point at least 30 minutes had passed since the fall.

I find myself agreeing with you Majid that this situation shows how even a climber with rescue skills needs to stay focused enough to make sure that they bring the necessary gear not despite, but because time could have been a critical factor. I would like to know more about her injuries, and whether there may have been any chance to help her or not.


markc


Nov 25, 2009, 9:51 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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My mind keeps coming back to this horrible accident, and to the other case of the climber asphyxiated by his gear sling referred to up-thread. My deepest sympathies to all involved, their family, and friends.

The odds of gear on the sling catching route features seems slight, but the results can obviously be catastrophic. At least on pure slab routes, this may be another reason to rack on the harness. In the case of the Obelisk accident, the terrain within one pitch sounds varied between gully, high-angle slab, and vertical. It's hard to know what lessons, if any, to take from freak occurrences such as these.


viciado


Nov 25, 2009, 10:07 AM
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Re: [markc] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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markc wrote:
snip
The odds of gear on the sling catching route features seems slight,
snip

Not to take your staement out of context... I just want to focus on what you said here.

I think that the odds of gear catching on a feature is actually pretty high. In fact I would say it happens often, but we unconsciously or at times intentionally move in such a way as to reduce the "catch" or release the gear. As someone upthread mentioned, our gear is designed to catch the features.

This accident does cause me to think carefully through my gear management options, but I agree that it is hard to find a clear "lesson" if there is one.


markc


Nov 25, 2009, 10:21 AM
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Re: [viciado] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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viciado wrote:
markc wrote:
snip
The odds of gear on the sling catching route features seems slight,
snip

Not to take your staement out of context... I just want to focus on what you said here.

I think that the odds of gear catching on a feature is actually pretty high. In fact I would say it happens often, but we unconsciously or at times intentionally move in such a way as to reduce the "catch" or release the gear. As someone upthread mentioned, our gear is designed to catch the features.

This accident does cause me to think carefully through my gear management options, but I agree that it is hard to find a clear "lesson" if there is one.

You're right, and I should have been more clear in my point. I've had gear catch as I'm climbing, ropes snag on a branch or feature as I'm scrabbling or descending, etc. I was thinking of gear becoming caught while falling. In a fall, the nature of the route (angle, features, etc) is obviously a large factor. In the time I've been climbing, I've heard of relatively few accidents where a piece on the rack gets lodged in a fall and arrests the climber (for good or for ill).


viciado


Nov 25, 2009, 11:16 AM
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Re: [markc] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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Now that I think of it, there was a thread/TR a couple of years back about a lady who fell in a chimney (?) and her gear loop caught and arrested her fall. If I recall right, it was the only thing that saved her from a loooong chute. I'll try to dig it up later.


dingus


Nov 25, 2009, 11:25 AM
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Re: [viciado] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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I don't find any particular lesson about the use of gear slings in this sad accident.

Just like I don't find any particular lesson for rock fall victims.

There are hazards galore in our sport. Many of them you can only mitigate by not climbing at all.

No you don't have to use a gear sling, or camera sling or another other durable piece of cord or webbing around you neck. This might save you from the freak 1 in x chance of stangulation I dunno.

But it does nothing for the million other ways to die while climbing.

For me - in the grand scheme of things there just is not Big Lesson here, except perhaps the most obvious one: when climbing remote backcountry routes like this - don't fall.

DMT


billcoe_


Nov 27, 2009, 10:14 AM
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dingus wrote:
For me - in the grand scheme of things there just is not Big Lesson here, except perhaps the most obvious one: when climbing remote backcountry routes like this - don't fall.

DMT
Add me to the list of supporters of that idea. Don't fall and pray a loose rock doesn't conk you. Stuff happens. It's a dangerous sport made more so as you get remote and move away from crowded areas and popular climbs. She may have blown a knob and knocked herself out to start, or just had a heart attack and fell: who can say till the formal report is out as it's all speculation.

For myself: I'm sorry to see this accident happen and I hope that those who knew her and miss her can find some peace.


regularjohn


Nov 27, 2009, 10:53 AM
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Re: [dingus] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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I'm aware of many of the inherent risks in the great adventure of rockclimbing and still, I am doing it all the time, simply because I love it that much.

However, if I find out about a particular risk and can minimize or even eliminate it, I will do it. So, good bye gear sling, I guess...


catbird_seat


Jan 11, 2010, 4:58 PM
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Re: [regularjohn] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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The take home message is not "get rid of your gear sling", but rather to study up on self-rescue techniques. There are excellent books on the subject out there. There is David Fasulo's book, Self-Rescue Techniques. I believe Andy Selter has a good book on crevasse rescue. There are other good books. One of the posters here is a guide who offers a course on self-rescue. Above all practice t his stuff, so you will not make as many mistakes.


(This post was edited by catbird_seat on Jan 11, 2010, 5:02 PM)


k.l.k


Jan 11, 2010, 5:06 PM
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Re: [catbird_seat] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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catbird_seat wrote:
The take home message is not "get rid of your gear sling", but rather to study up on self-rescue techniques.

Why? One of the grimmest things about this incident is that the team actually did a solid self-rescue job. SAR here was basically extra labor helping to carry the body out.

DMT is right-- there is no lesson here, aside from "The Leader Must Not Fall."

But we knew that in the 19th century.

Lots of top-flight, elite, famous, back-country FAists violated that rule in similar settings without these consequences.

RIP


ClimbClimb


Jan 15, 2010, 12:59 PM
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Re: [k.l.k] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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k.l.k wrote:
DMT is right-- there is no lesson here, aside from "The Leader Must Not Fall."

Could you or Dingus explain this more? I understand the risk is minimal compared to everything else that can go wrong, but it is common practice in other situations to avoid having gear or clothing that can get caught.

For example, working with lathes & other machinery, men do not wear ties, short-sleeves are often recommended, long hair is pinned back, etc. Are there other ways of getting injured? Sure, but it's a simple precaution to take.

In some uniforms, only clip-on ties are used, because of risk of suffucation in a fight or a fall.

In diving, a key part of squaring away your gear and hoses is to avoid getting it caught on coral, wrecks, dive boat or other divers. Is that the highest or most probable risk to a diver? Clearly not, if one reads the accident reports.

But since it's easy to do many of these things, without much penalty in effort or enjoyment, why not take the extra precaution? Note that it's different than saying "avoid back-country", because that does impact enjoyment significantly. Wearing a gear sling differently, or getting rid of it, or getting some break-away gear sling seems pretty easy for some minimal risk reduction.


k.l.k


Jan 15, 2010, 1:33 PM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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ClimbClimb wrote:
k.l.k wrote:
DMT is right-- there is no lesson here, aside from "The Leader Must Not Fall."

Could you or Dingus explain this more? I understand the risk is minimal compared to everything else that can go wrong, but it is common practice in other situations to avoid having gear or clothing that can get caught. . . . Wearing a gear sling differently, or getting rid of it, or getting some break-away gear sling seems pretty easy for some minimal risk reduction.

How would you climb roped back-country routes without slings? They are the single-most basic bit of gear in the kit. And the long slings important in bc climbing don't reduce easily to "trad draws" nor will they be usable if stuffed into your pockets.

This event was a freak occurrence. Racking on a harness is no more more obvious or natural than a gear sling. Nor is there any reason to believe it might be safer-- a cam racked on the gear loops might catch in a fall, tip you upside down, and turn an otherwise casual slider into a fatal head injury.

And in back-country, gear slings make it easier swap out the rack at stations, thus decreasing clusters and increasing speed. I can count jillions of accidents and epics caused by teams climbing too slowly, getting benighted, and then getting into trouble. I can count one in which someone was killed by their gear sling.


ClimbClimb


Jan 15, 2010, 1:45 PM
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k.l.k wrote:
And in back-country, gear slings make it easier swap out the rack at stations, thus decreasing clusters and increasing speed. I can count jillions of accidents and epics caused by teams climbing too slowly, getting benighted, and then getting into trouble. I can count one in which someone was killed by their gear sling.

Thanks, appreciate you taking the time put that together -- I hadn't thought of the risks of not using a gear sling.
Aside from slings used for pro, just brainstorming here, what about making a gearsling that breaks at some set weight-limit, for carrying gear only? I wonder if there's some number (25? 50 lbs?) that would be hold the gear but still let it safely break before a verbebra does in a fall.

They do this for cat flea collars. (Yeah, yeah, that probably undermines my whole point here).


k.l.k


Jan 15, 2010, 2:03 PM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Account of Obelisk Accident, california Nov 09 [In reply to]
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ClimbClimb wrote:
k.l.k wrote:
And in back-country, gear slings make it easier swap out the rack at stations, thus decreasing clusters and increasing speed. I can count jillions of accidents and epics caused by teams climbing too slowly, getting benighted, and then getting into trouble. I can count one in which someone was killed by their gear sling.

Thanks, appreciate you taking the time put that together -- I hadn't thought of the risks of not using a gear sling.
Aside from slings used for pro, just brainstorming here, what about making a gearsling that breaks at some set weight-limit, for carrying gear only? I wonder if there's some number (25? 50 lbs?) that would be hold the gear but still let it safely break before a verbebra does in a fall.

I'd much rather take my chances with the freakishly low chance of getting killed by my gear sling, than with the much greater chance that a 'breakaway" sling would pick a bad moment to dump all the gear.

The gear sling is also your sling of last resort. Or if it's perlon, Prusik of last resort. And if you're carrying a stack of single and double-slings, maybe even a triple or quad, as you should in most areas, a freak accident involving those slings seems more likely than one involving the gear sling.

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