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Dry tooling video, and ethics question
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joeforte


Dec 4, 2009, 12:36 PM
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Dry tooling video, and ethics question
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Ok, I don't know anything about dry tooling, and I was watching this "cool" video...

http://vimeo.com/groups/extreme/videos/7574282

So it made me wonder a few things about dry tooling:

Why are there logs hanging off of bolts? (is this what I see?)

Since there is no ice, why are they using crampons? It seems like aggressive rock shoes would work better.

Again, since there is no ice, and it's relatively warm (no shirts) why are they even using tools? Why not climb these routes with their hands?

Which brings us to my main question: Does dry tooling damage the rock? Is this a specific dry-tooling area? I don't see any chalk, so it makes me think so, but why not? It looks like it would be an amazing sport/trad climbing area. Is it unethical to dry-tool at a rock climbing area?


Partner j_ung


Dec 4, 2009, 12:52 PM
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Re: [joeforte] Dry tooling video, and ethics question [In reply to]
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joeforte wrote:
Ok, I don't know anything about dry tooling, and I was watching this "cool" video...

http://vimeo.com/...treme/videos/7574282

So it made me wonder a few things about dry tooling:

Why are there logs hanging off of bolts? (is this what I see?)

Since there is no ice, why are they using crampons? It seems like aggressive rock shoes would work better.

Again, since there is no ice, and it's relatively warm (no shirts) why are they even using tools? Why not climb these routes with their hands?

Which brings us to my main question: Does dry tooling damage the rock? Is this a specific dry-tooling area? I don't see any chalk, so it makes me think so, but why not? It looks like it would be an amazing sport/trad climbing area. Is it unethical to dry-tool at a rock climbing area?

Here you go, Joe.


joeforte


Dec 4, 2009, 12:56 PM
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Thanks!


johnwesely


Dec 4, 2009, 1:09 PM
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I find it is good for the holds to get dry tooled on by ice axes.


jaablink


Dec 4, 2009, 1:24 PM
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I don’t know what to tell you there Joe. It does look like good training. I also noticed that the bineers on all the draws are apposed.
Here and in the Dacks it is considered extremely bad form to dry tool the rock climbs. It is defiantly very frowned upon….I guess in France its ok…???


jmeizis


Dec 4, 2009, 1:47 PM
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They're just training. You aren't gonna wear your rock shoes when it's 20 degrees out and crampons make for better climbing on small edges than big boots.

The hanging logs are probably just to imitate hanging pillars.

Dry tooling does damage the rock which is why it's generally done in places with crappy rock. It's a big no-no in the US to dry tool at established rock climbing areas and even worse to do so on established rock routes. Not sure how it works over there (France?). It's hard to know the rock quality just from the video.


granite_grrl


Dec 4, 2009, 2:47 PM
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joeforte wrote:
Why are there logs hanging off of bolts? (is this what I see?)
Here is another video to get an idea of how the logs would be climbed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvBWvUaxlwE
Can't say they climb the same as pillars. It might be that the users of the cliff were looking for an added challenge with the logs, or it might be that holds run out on the cliff and they need an alternative.

In reply to:
Since there is no ice, why are they using crampons? It seems like aggressive rock shoes would work better.
Actually, it usually easier to climb overhanging stuff like this with crampons, rock shoes can make it harder most of the time.

In reply to:
Again, since there is no ice, and it's relatively warm (no shirts) why are they even using tools? Why not climb these routes with their hands?
Training I guess.

In reply to:
Which brings us to my main question: Does dry tooling damage the rock? Is this a specific dry-tooling area? I don't see any chalk, so it makes me think so, but why not? It looks like it would be an amazing sport/trad climbing area. Is it unethical to dry-tool at a rock climbing area?
Drytooling will damage rock, especially the more you thrash around (ie - I'm still not great at drytooling and tend to thrash). The damage can range from simple scritching of the rock, but it can also blow out small hook and pockets.

As for why they aren't rock climbing on it....I guess that's what they do with North American grade limestone over in Europe.


joeforte


Dec 4, 2009, 5:22 PM
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granite_grrl wrote:
joeforte wrote:
Why are there logs hanging off of bolts? (is this what I see?)
Here is another video to get an idea of how the logs would be climbed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvBWvUaxlwE
Can't say they climb the same as pillars. It might be that the users of the cliff were looking for an added challenge with the logs, or it might be that holds run out on the cliff and they need an alternative.

Ok, that was pretty ridiculous too. Those things are like punching bags , and they're on swivels. I noticed at the end, when that guy couldn't get through the crux, that he was kicking his feet into the wall, like it was some sort of artificial ice. I wonder why he didn't just swing into it as well? Maybe you can use the wall for feet only?


adatesman


Dec 4, 2009, 7:38 PM
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uni_jim


Dec 4, 2009, 8:57 PM
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jaablink wrote:
I don’t know what to tell you there Joe. It does look like good training. I also noticed that the biners on all the draws are opposed.

what does that have to do with anythng?


joeforte


Dec 4, 2009, 9:21 PM
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uni_jim wrote:
jaablink wrote:
I don’t know what to tell you there Joe. It does look like good training. I also noticed that the biners on all the draws are opposed.

what does that have to do with anythng?

Maybe fixed/opposed biners is secret drytooling code that the route is "kosher" to 'tool.


altelis


Dec 4, 2009, 9:22 PM
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joeforte wrote:
uni_jim wrote:
jaablink wrote:
I don’t know what to tell you there Joe. It does look like good training. I also noticed that the biners on all the draws are opposed.

what does that have to do with anythng?

Maybe fixed/opposed biners is secret drytooling code that the route is "kosher" to 'tool.
Crazy


joeforte


Dec 4, 2009, 9:23 PM
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adatesman wrote:
I dunno Joe... I hear Wine Couloir occasionally freezes up, so maybe drytooling parts of DWG isn't out of the question? (I'm half serious, and have been tempted.)

Does anyone even climb that in the summer? It's always wet! I've scoped a few lines up there. I think there is plenty of chossy rock in between established lines that can be drytooled... but it's mostly slabby stuff.


jaablink


Dec 5, 2009, 6:01 AM
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You guys are going to get yourselves fucked up. If you are climbing it, it needs to be stable enough to climb. Weather its rock or ice. Joe those guys in your video are probably on rock climbs, I guess that is ok in France…. But its not choss. .. Maybe it is a designated area for mixed climbing, sport ice…. But it is stable and hard enough to torch your tools without levering off the holds.

When the loose rock freezes together solid in PA … go for it . But when its loose and you are levering off rocks you are just asking for it…. I know you just got into ice and want to go at it full on , but it will all still be there to play on for many years to come. Why don’t you take it a little slow until you figure it out… I will be back in a few months and I promise to show you where you can practice all the dry tooling you want off season.


joeforte


Dec 5, 2009, 6:24 AM
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jaablink wrote:
You guys are going to get yourselves fucked up. If you are climbing it, it needs to be stable enough to climb. Weather its rock or ice. Joe those guys in your video are probably on rock climbs, I guess that is ok in France…. But its not choss. .. Maybe it is a designated area for mixed climbing, sport ice…. But it is stable and hard enough to torch your tools without levering off the holds.

When the loose rock freezes together solid in PA … go for it . But when its loose and you are levering off rocks you are just asking for it…. I know you just got into ice and want to go at it full on , but it will all still be there to play on for many years to come. Why don’t you take it a little slow until you figure it out… I will be back in a few months and I promise to show you where you can practice all the dry tooling you want off season.

Thanks for the offer. I'm actually not very excited about dry tooling. Something about the sound of picks and crampons on rock, and the fact that I only have one set of nice tools and poons that I don't want to trash. Anyway, if it's above 30, I'll be free climbing. Below 30, and hopefully the choss would be consolidated, if I do get the urge to scratch up some rock. I'd rather be on ice at this point though...


altelis


Dec 5, 2009, 7:22 AM
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jaablink wrote:
You guys are going to get yourselves fucked up. If you are climbing it, it needs to be stable enough to climb. Weather its rock or ice. Joe those guys in your video are probably on rock climbs, I guess that is ok in France…. But its not choss. .. Maybe it is a designated area for mixed climbing, sport ice…. But it is stable and hard enough to torch your tools without levering off the holds.

When the loose rock freezes together solid in PA … go for it . But when its loose and you are levering off rocks you are just asking for it…. I know you just got into ice and want to go at it full on , but it will all still be there to play on for many years to come. Why don’t you take it a little slow until you figure it out… I will be back in a few months and I promise to show you where you can practice all the dry tooling you want off season.

Why the fuck does everybody keep saying that its in france so it MUST be a rock climb and they are just cool with that?

Its a mixed climbing venue. There are places like that in the US and Canada too. Overhanging limestone cliffs with bolted routes that are specifically for mixed climbing.

A quick google of "zoo mixed climb" brings up this:
In reply to:
There is also “total-dry” climbing, dry-tooling routes which presumably never see ice
formation even in winter but where dry-tooling technique predominates. An example of such a
crag is Le Zoo located near Sallanche in the Mont blanc region of France, local mixed
enthusiasts have developed a crag fully-bolted where the climbing is largely in drilled and
enhanced pockets, leashless tools and fruit boots are the norm there with the climbing
demanding massive reaches. One route, Giraf even features suspended lengths of tree-trunks
that the climber must scale in sequence to reach the final clip-in point, unbelievable! Typically
total dry routes are denoted by a “D” grade to distinguish them from mixed “M” grades.
Watch out though as a D7 might be a whole different matter as opposed to an M7, be careful
you don’t get clobbered by a big ol’ sandbag!

This answers all your questions:
1) The logs are part of a manufactured route- they are to be climbed
2) The crag is solely for mixed climbing

Man, too bad google is so freaking hard to use!
http://tinyurl.com/yzf442m


qwert


Dec 5, 2009, 7:44 AM
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joeforte wrote:
granite_grrl wrote:
joeforte wrote:
Why are there logs hanging off of bolts? (is this what I see?)
Here is another video to get an idea of how the logs would be climbed:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvBWvUaxlwE
Can't say they climb the same as pillars. It might be that the users of the cliff were looking for an added challenge with the logs, or it might be that holds run out on the cliff and they need an alternative.

Ok, that was pretty ridiculous too. Those things are like punching bags , and they're on swivels. I noticed at the end, when that guy couldn't get through the crux, that he was kicking his feet into the wall, like it was some sort of artificial ice. I wonder why he didn't just swing into it as well? Maybe you can use the wall for feet only?
I cant speak for every competition, but as far as i know the walls are feet only.
Mostly its wood (this soft stuff made of sawdust, dont know what its called) and you could easily climb it. so if you where allowd to use the wall with your tools it would make every route easy.
As far as i understand it it is generally a problem with our modern equipment (and the ridiculous power levels of the top climbers) that ice is too easy.
So competitions have to bee mixed or dry, because if they where pure ice everyone would be able to climb to the top.

And on the first video:
Seems like this is a pure drytooling spot, so i guess its ok.
Personally i am not fond of drytooling. mixed? why not, put pure dry? thats ridiculous, and it does damage the rock. If its on some wet crappy rock (like many mixed and dry areas) i probably does not matter, but if someone starts using tools on rock routes it gets problematic!

qwert


joeforte


Dec 5, 2009, 12:01 PM
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"local mixed enthusiasts have developed a crag fully-bolted where the climbing is largely in drilled and enhanced pockets"

Why does there have to be drilled and enhanced pockets? It seems like at this rate there will be no "projects" left for future generations. Kinda sad if you ask me.


sungam


Dec 5, 2009, 2:09 PM
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altelis wrote:
Why the fuck does everybody keep saying that its in france so it MUST be a rock climb and they are just cool with that?
Heh, yeah - I don't get this. No one ANYWHERE would let people DT routes!
It's an established tooling crag. A training ground for the mountains, but also a sport in itself.


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