Thanks for that explanation. You're right, 2 feet of slack removed is better than nothing. I really hope I never end up in that situation, it does seem to be a lose/lose one.

Trixie

Please wake up and start taking this sport seriously. If you climb long enough you almost certainly will be in a situation (more than once) when your actions as a belayer will (or won't) keep your partner from decking. If don't think you can handle that coolly and competently, find another sport.

Jay

The situation I'm talking about is this specific one where the climber was approx 15' above his first and only piece of pro and had enough rope out that he would deck. Oh, and the fact that the belayer was unhappy with the situation, but the climber continued anyway.

Trixie, here's the simple jist of the matter. Climbing is alot more than just going up the rock. It requires forsight and thought. Something that appears to be completely lost on the modern day climber. This includes about 90% of the people on this site.

Hopefully you won't fall into this catagory.

This isn't jogging or roller blading. This is serous. The accident rates in the last 7 to 8 years speak for themselves.

Stupid people are flocking to the crags and getting hurt and/or dieing.

While I generally agree with the sentiment and was most definitely a ranking member of that party in the past, I think Trixie has you and jt on this one.

But something has gone desperately wrong with the way climbers are being introduced to the sport.

I'm not questioning Trixie's willingness to learn. But something has gone desperately wrong with the way climbers are being introduced to the sport.

I can tell you with certainty, that since the very first day I ever climbed, I would not have attempted to shorten a climber's fall by pulling in slack on the climber's side of the rope; through some combination of training and common sense I'd have pulled the rope through the belay device and/or run back and/or dived to the ground. And here we have one climber in Tucson who did the wrong thing (and even after time to think about it) thinks she's a hero, and another (Trixie) who said she would do the same. What has gone wrong?

Jay

This is exactly right and a large source of the problem.

Anymore people are brought to climbing though a hundred different avenues and aren't compelled to give it the respect such an unforgiving engagement deserves. It has been lumped in with all the other "everyman" sports and while I agree that instinct should tell a person this is serious business, I understand how someone could lose sight of that given how it is advertised and practiced.

I kind of split the difference in how I came to climbing. The first time I was exposed to it I watched from the north summit of seneca rocks while two men worked their way to the southern summit and was completely inspired by watching their slow but deliberate progress. A few months later I visited a local gym for the first time, within two weeks I was leading sport and 2-3 weeks later I was leading on gear. I came to climbing rather organically but it was so accessible and easy to take up that I got right in over my head.

One thing that continues to influence my approach to the sport are conversations with folks like yourself on here. That and reading through parts of the archive has changed my perspective on a lot of things from ethics to technique to anchor construction and most importantly safety. In many ways RC.com helped to offset my total lack of mentoring. I know we talk a lot of shit and goof off in community but I think the more experienced folks on here really do have something to offer. Some people are actually listening to whats being said.


A lot has gone wrong and some are just beyond hope but I think there is promise in those who know and admit that they are novices. If they are willing to listen and work to advance their knowledge, that behavior should be encouraged.

I think it's worth trying to differentiate between and treat differently those who will listen to reason and those who won't. That is really my only point.


edit - spelling

through some combination of training and common sense I'd have pulled the rope through the belay device and/or run back and/or dived to the ground.

On most sport climbs you belay, you'll be in a situation where your partner will be in decking range when clipping the second bolt. There is absolutely nothing unusual about this situation; you'll be in it routinely. If the only reason your partner is in decking range is because he's 15 feet above his last pro, you should be happy, because at least then you'll have time to do something useful (provided you don't fuck up and uselessly grab the wrong side of the rope).Jay

While I generally agree with the sentiment and was most definitely a ranking member of that party in the past, I think Trixie has you and jt on this one.

Yes, we all would, but if you're unable to pull enough slack through the belay device because there's too much rope out AND you have nowhere to run to, all you're left with is diving for the ground and in my case, if there was still over 2' of slack out, that wouldn't help either. The only thing left, after all of this is grabbing the rope.

That's why I asked a while back how long it would take an average belayer to get 6' of slack through a belay device.

So what would you do if you can't get enough slack out of the rope to stop a climber decking? Yes, I know, you wouldn't get into that position in the first place but if you were in that position, what would you do? What else is left but sheer desperation? I suppose you could lie there and watch the action, but that's not something I could do.

edit: judging from the combative tone of the belayer's posts, especially rule #2 on the list of lessons, i wonder how these people ever come to rope up together in the first place? do they meet online?

Oh boy. My gut reaction on that one was of an "indirect" accident victim searching hard to make sense of it all without a lot of experience / knowledge. Same for continuing assertion that it was valuable to hold back the slack with the guide hand.

Of coursre, if a climbing pair gets to the point of the belayer hog tieing the leader - that partnership was completely broken even before anyone left the ground. <- that already said in other ways by JT, SoCal, yourself, etc..

I like the fluidity you described between regular belay mode, deck-saving belay mode, and spotter mode. I'll add to that "observer mode" as an extreme possibility.

Bill L

This implies that you must not belay with the rope locked off in the first place, like you were most likely taught—you can't pull rope in fast enough from a locked off position.

I think the rather nuanced art of belaying doesn't receive nearly enough focus or respect during the first few years of most peoples climbing careers. It's treated as a nuisance and approached rather mechanically. I don't know what can be done to change that though. Unfortunately.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. That is one of those tricks of the trade that you actually convinced me employ some time back. I was never a diehard "gotta lock off at all times" kind of guy but I wasn't initially open to belaying in such a fashion during those critical moments. I still default to a relaxed lockoff most times but if I anticipate a need to yard in slack, I bring my hands much closer together in preparation.

Thanks.

In a decade of arguing for this on the internet, you might be the only person I've convinced. Fortunately, my success rate among climbers I've talked to in person is greater.

Jay or anyone else in this camp: What do you do with the person totally new to climbing in this regard? Do you teach from the outset that the default should be the "neutral" position?