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areyoumydude


Dec 14, 2009, 9:45 AM
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Nutty Putty accident
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WTF were they using for an anchor.


"At one point, Jones was temporarily freed by rescuers using ropes and pulleys, but an anchor attached to the wall of the cave broke loose and he slid back into the fissure."

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_13895670


boymeetsrock


Dec 14, 2009, 10:09 AM
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One bolt in supposedly poor rock.

There was a thread on this already but I can't find it with the magnificent search function. Sorry.


acorneau


Dec 14, 2009, 10:11 AM
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areyoumydude wrote:
WTF were they using for an anchor.

By the description it sounds like they put in a bolt/hanger.


areyoumydude


Dec 14, 2009, 10:16 AM
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Re: [boymeetsrock] Nutty Putty accident [In reply to]
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boymeetsrock wrote:
One bolt in supposedly poor rock.

There was a thread on this already but I can't find it with the magnificent search function. Sorry.

One bolt. That's efed up. That guy should still be alive.


ClimbClimb


Dec 14, 2009, 10:18 AM
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Re: [acorneau] Nutty Putty accident [In reply to]
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Yeah, I had contemplated posting about this when it happened, but decided it was both not strictly climbing related and also just so tragic -- they had the guy out, talking on the phone with his wife, and then the anchor fails, he falls back in and gets stuck more firmly & dies.

It would be good to know what they had as anchor(s), why they didn't block off the passage from below, etc. -- probably just the last thing on their mind after a multi-day rescue effort. Sad.


dolphja


Dec 14, 2009, 10:26 AM
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yea this story has been going around the NSS and every grotto around the nation regarding what happend and the failed rescue since it began. hardware failure sure is a rotten deal.


boymeetsrock


Dec 14, 2009, 10:27 AM
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Yeah. It seems to have been a very unfortunate incident. What climbclimb posted is also correct. From what I was reading before it sounds like the poor guy got so badly stuck the second time, they are going to close off the whole cave instead of trying a recovery.

The whole thing seemed pretty strange. Esp. since they had the guy extricated but couldn't get him out a second time.

Condolences to those involved.


areyoumydude


Dec 14, 2009, 10:37 AM
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I remember reading in one of the first articles that he fell in do to equipment failure. The next day the sheriff stated that it wasn't equipment failure, but an anchor that pulled out of the rock.

The anchor IS the most important piece system. Whoever was in charge needs to be replaced with a competent rigger.

Very tragic indeed.


Partner xtrmecat


Dec 14, 2009, 10:57 AM
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  Wow, what a load of ignorant judgment we have here. Search around, the details are out there, I read them, you should too it seems.

A thread was replied by one of the only rescuers small enough to reach near the victim. It was a redirect that pulled. I have no idea how judgment on someones abilities can be made by those who have not a clue as to how, who, how tight, where, what, and the other 3000 details of the attempted rescue.

I can see a hand drilled anchor bolt, placed in chossy mank, in a very limited space for both drilling and placing, by someone who has been on the rescue for over 30 hours or so, getting pulls from who knows what direction by how much force cannot be anticipated accurately, pulling. Calling the leader of this or any person out for lack of skills or ability is just not justifiable, reasonable, or even remotely right. WTF?

Bob


Shroom


Dec 14, 2009, 11:18 AM
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Unfortunately, many rescue ops are run by the governmental agencies whose jurisdiction they happen to fall under. When this involves technical climbing or knowledge, these locals will forsake intelligence in favor of who has shown up for the latest training exercise.

Think of your local fire department. They will take anyone as a volunteer or even paid employee if they are fanatic. This does not make them qualified. Shit, I know multiple idiots who I would not trust to lick a stamp who would abandon a live child birth for the opportunity to run their sirens and watch someone elses life go up in smoke.

I bet the so called rescuers in this case have very limited caving experience, if any at all.


Gmburns2000


Dec 14, 2009, 11:48 AM
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Man, that's terrible. I really hope he wasn't conscious when he got stuck the second time. Wow, that's just mind blowing. Unsure


boymeetsrock


Dec 14, 2009, 12:03 PM
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Can you point us in the direction of any of those old threads?


marc801


Dec 14, 2009, 12:19 PM
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Shroom wrote:
I bet the so called rescuers in this case have very limited caving experience, if any at all.
Wrong. As someone up-thread suggested, do some research before making blatantly incorrect assumptions.


marc801


Dec 14, 2009, 12:21 PM
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boymeetsrock wrote:
... they are going to close off the whole cave instead of trying a recovery.
The cave was sealed last week.


jcrew


Dec 14, 2009, 12:34 PM
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hats off to those would tried to save him. if anybody out there thinks they have "the skills" i suggest you look into voulenteering on a S & R team.


Alpine07


Dec 14, 2009, 1:13 PM
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Re: [Shroom] Nutty Putty accident [In reply to]
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Shroom wrote:
Unfortunately, many rescue ops are run by the governmental agencies whose jurisdiction they happen to fall under. When this involves technical climbing or knowledge, these locals will forsake intelligence in favor of who has shown up for the latest training exercise.

Think of your local fire department. They will take anyone as a volunteer or even paid employee if they are fanatic. This does not make them qualified. Shit, I know multiple idiots who I would not trust to lick a stamp who would abandon a live child birth for the opportunity to run their sirens and watch someone elses life go up in smoke.

I bet the so called rescuers in this case have very limited caving experience, if any at all.

This is true. Being a volunteer firefighter, i get to see what the standard is for rope rescue training. Pretty lacking all around. The equipment used by a lot of these departments is pretty old as well. Lots of ancient gear... They are all still sporting figure eight belay devices, rappel racks, and ascenders from the middle ages. I think that most fd's would be able to execute an easier vertical rescue... it just might take them a couple days to get their shit together.


bill413


Dec 14, 2009, 1:18 PM
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In reply to:
estimated 5,000 cavers who cavort in the cavern each year.
In reply to:
For more than four decades after its discovery in 1960, the cave was open to any and all comers,
In reply to:
[closed...reopened]safety equipment was required, and the entrance was gated and locked to control access
In reply to:
Grotto running the show, the cave was never safer, or, as it turned out, more deadly. Jones was Nutty Putty's first victim

I'm surprised that we express no concern over a resource with that sort of utilization being closed after one death. It is a tragic accident, and made more horrifying by his almost rescue. But, should the cave be shut down?


marc801


Dec 14, 2009, 1:19 PM
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Alpine07 wrote:
Shroom wrote:
Unfortunately, many rescue ops are run by the governmental agencies whose jurisdiction they happen to fall under. When this involves technical climbing or knowledge, these locals will forsake intelligence in favor of who has shown up for the latest training exercise.

Think of your local fire department. They will take anyone as a volunteer or even paid employee if they are fanatic. This does not make them qualified. Shit, I know multiple idiots who I would not trust to lick a stamp who would abandon a live child birth for the opportunity to run their sirens and watch someone elses life go up in smoke.

I bet the so called rescuers in this case have very limited caving experience, if any at all.

This is true. Being a volunteer firefighter, i get to see what the standard is for rope rescue training. Pretty lacking all around. The equipment used by a lot of these departments is pretty old as well. Lots of ancient gear... They are all still sporting figure eight belay devices, rappel racks, and ascenders from the middle ages. I think that most fd's would be able to execute an easier vertical rescue... it just might take them a couple days to get their shit together.
We're talking about an incident in a locale where there are excellent, highly trained high angle and cave SAR units.


Alpine07


Dec 14, 2009, 1:31 PM
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marc801 wrote:
Alpine07 wrote:
Shroom wrote:
Unfortunately, many rescue ops are run by the governmental agencies whose jurisdiction they happen to fall under. When this involves technical climbing or knowledge, these locals will forsake intelligence in favor of who has shown up for the latest training exercise.

Think of your local fire department. They will take anyone as a volunteer or even paid employee if they are fanatic. This does not make them qualified. Shit, I know multiple idiots who I would not trust to lick a stamp who would abandon a live child birth for the opportunity to run their sirens and watch someone elses life go up in smoke.

I bet the so called rescuers in this case have very limited caving experience, if any at all.

This is true. Being a volunteer firefighter, i get to see what the standard is for rope rescue training. Pretty lacking all around. The equipment used by a lot of these departments is pretty old as well. Lots of ancient gear... They are all still sporting figure eight belay devices, rappel racks, and ascenders from the middle ages. I think that most fd's would be able to execute an easier vertical rescue... it just might take them a couple days to get their shit together.
We're talking about an incident in a locale where there are excellent, highly trained high angle and cave SAR units.

Oh ok, well that is good to know. I was more thinking the general skill of rescue teams across the country is lacking. Though there are definitely places that know their stuff.

shroom wrote:
multiple idiots who I would not trust to lick a stamp who would abandon a live child birth for the opportunity to run their sirens and watch someone elses life go up in smoke.

Just reread this and thought I might comment. Stupid statement all around. They are not just looking to run their sirens and watch someone elses life go up in smoke. Sure, it can be fun for the firefighters. But they do a ridiculous amount of work, and don't get paid a dime. Next time your house is on fire you'll be glad to have those idiots come and "run their sirens."


marc801


Dec 14, 2009, 1:40 PM
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bill413 wrote:
I'm surprised that we express no concern over a resource with that sort of utilization being closed after one death. It is a tragic accident, and made more horrifying by his almost rescue. But, should the cave be shut down?
Although the whole incident hasn't been discussed much on RC, there's been quite a bit of discussion and disagreement with the closure here. Check out the open letter on the Nutty Putty site: http://www.nuttyputtycave.com/...hBoyScoutLeader.html

And this from the Deseret News:
http://www.deseretnews.com/...s-of-complaints.html

There's also this posting on the NSS site that includes a couple of links:
http://www.caves.org/.../viewtopic.php?t=149


marc801


Dec 14, 2009, 1:51 PM
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Shroom wrote:
I bet the so called rescuers in this case have very limited caving experience, if any at all.
This has been bugging me ever since I first responded to it. Read this thread before making any further idiotic comments: http://www.forums.caves.org/...c.php?f=7&t=9399

In particular, one post from one of several of the cavers involved in the rescue attempt discussed in that 10 page thread says:

Andy Armstrong posting on cavechat.org wrote:
Hi everyone. Bonny and I spent all day yesterday at this rescue now turned recovery. As you can tell from the news, it was a frustrating, emotionally taxing ordeal for all involved.

I am not an official spokesperson for the rescue, nor a member of the command team, so my comments should be taken just as the impressions of one of the team members.

I was in the cave for about 12 hours yesterday as part of the effort. There were many ups and downs, a lot of heroic effort, and much determination. I would like to commend the sherriffs, fire teams, and county SAR for working so well with the cavers that were there. Cavers were recognized as vital, integral members of the team. Only small cavers could actually get near John. He got himself into a truly horrible situation, and not even everyone's best effort was enough to free him.

The press coverage has been very accurate, especially considering that they could not see really any of what was going on. I would like to clear up one thing however. Several news outlets have reported that John was "free" and then the rigging failed, sending him back to where he started. This is incorrect. When the redirect popped, John was still several hours from being "free". I estimate he was probably 2 hours of hauling and squeezing from where he would have been able to sit up. The haul systems ran through a twisting passage, requiring pulleyed redirects at each corner, four in all. As far as I can tell, the last one was set up on a natural anchor. It was very near the patient, one bend beyond where I could fit. I believe it was the anchor itself that blew, not the rope or cord as reported. The rescuer was actually hit in the face with two rescue pulleys and two carabiners.

While this setback was definitely the turning point of the rescue, John probably lost about two feet of progress as a result. Rescuers had already moved him a ways up the passage in the 15 or so hours before this. He was still a long way from being free, even without the blowout. Once the rigging was rebuilt with better anchors, by this time John was too exhausted to help us, rendering the setup useless. We were hauling him into a tight spot, with only his feet visible. He was head-down for 24 hours, with no way to turn him, and the clock beat us.


Alpine07


Dec 14, 2009, 2:33 PM
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Thanks for posting all that. Its really good to hear that the rescue teams had their shit together and knew what they were doing, and weren't just a bunch of guys that happened to be the most qualified.


Partner xtrmecat


Dec 14, 2009, 2:51 PM
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  Thanks Marc, that is one of the comments that I was referring to. I am amazed at the lack of decency here when it comes to making judgments. Instead of talking shit, go out and do this work yourselves. At least the energy you expend will be in a positive direction.

I am tired of judgmental idiots, doing nothing to better the world, complaining of work done by others, usually volunteer and skilled, as being insufficient or poor. I'm throwing down the gauntlet here. Instead of complain, do. Train others to do. Give instead of take. If you have no skill, carry in food or water to those that do.

I know thread drift, and expecting a little too much from the crew that won't even search a little before commenting. Rant over.

Bob


areyoumydude


Dec 14, 2009, 3:05 PM
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xtrmecat wrote:
Thanks Marc, that is one of the comments that I was referring to. I am amazed at the lack of decency here when it comes to making judgments. Instead of talking shit, go out and do this work yourselves. At least the energy you expend will be in a positive direction.

I am tired of judgmental idiots, doing nothing to better the world, complaining of work done by others, usually volunteer and skilled, as being insufficient or poor. I'm throwing down the gauntlet here. Instead of complain, do. Train others to do. Give instead of take. If you have no skill, carry in food or water to those that do.

I know thread drift, and expecting a little too much from the crew that won't even search a little before commenting. Rant over.

Bob
*pulls foot out of mouth*
Well Bob, It seems you're doing the same thing that you are criticizing me of. I did do a search. Sorry I missed the informative stuff. Everything I read was in the mainstream media and not very accurate evidently.

Thanks Marc for the info. That's what I was looking for.


Shroom


Dec 14, 2009, 3:40 PM
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marc801 wrote:
Alpine07 wrote:
Shroom wrote:
Unfortunately, many rescue ops are run by the governmental agencies whose jurisdiction they happen to fall under. When this involves technical climbing or knowledge, these locals will forsake intelligence in favor of who has shown up for the latest training exercise.

Think of your local fire department. They will take anyone as a volunteer or even paid employee if they are fanatic. This does not make them qualified. Shit, I know multiple idiots who I would not trust to lick a stamp who would abandon a live child birth for the opportunity to run their sirens and watch someone elses life go up in smoke.

I bet the so called rescuers in this case have very limited caving experience, if any at all.

This is true. Being a volunteer firefighter, i get to see what the standard is for rope rescue training. Pretty lacking all around. The equipment used by a lot of these departments is pretty old as well. Lots of ancient gear... They are all still sporting figure eight belay devices, rappel racks, and ascenders from the middle ages. I think that most fd's would be able to execute an easier vertical rescue... it just might take them a couple days to get their shit together.
We're talking about an incident in a locale where there are excellent, highly trained high angle and cave SAR units.

Then why did this guy die?

I think I read something about 1370 volunteer hours involved in this rescue, and yet he still perished. Tragic.

I mean, did not one person during this time span question the single mank anchor (which failed) or anticipate the consequences of such?

I challenge you to show me just how all of these thousands of volunteer hours were spent. I wager that a few blessed souls worked their arses off, and the bulk of the "participants" showed up after hearing a scanner call, milled around, and are now bragging that they "did their best."

The sad truth is that those people did.

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