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markc
Dec 17, 2009, 8:00 PM
Post #126 of 144
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blueeyedclimber wrote: As for the op, belaying aside, I hope that she now realizes that she has the right to refuse a belay if she feels that her experience is not up to par. So called "experieced" climbers do not necessarily have the judgement that you might expect.
Something that's been discussed is that the most dangerous time in someone's climbing development may be between 2 - 4 years. The person knows enough to gain confidence and climb independently, but isn't seasoned. (Of course, that's a large generalization with a very flexible timeframe.)
For a new climber, 'experienced' is relative, and almost everyone is more experienced than you are. When I started climbing, the guys I went with generally had their wits about them. If they hadn't, I might not have had the wherewithal to realize it initially.
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troutboy
Dec 17, 2009, 8:02 PM
Post #127 of 144
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jt512 wrote: I think that the proportion of routes where the first piece cannot be multidirectional is one of the classic exaggerations of rockclimbing.com. Jay
Interesting observation. My conclusions also, but then my data set is greatly skewed from climbing at the Gunks where horizontals are king. I've often wondered whether I just forgot about the times I needed to do something special for multidirectional pieces or whether finding the multidirectional first piece really is not much of an issue. Maybe it's an experience thing - the longer you climb the easier it might be to spot the multidirectional placement and use it over a more obvious, unidirectional placement.
TS
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 17, 2009, 8:30 PM
Post #128 of 144
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jt512 wrote: In reply to: As for multi-directional pieces as a first piece, sometimes that's just not possible and belayer position becomes extremely important in this regard. It might be nice to have a bolt or a nice horizontal crack 15 feet up every time, but that's not always going to happen. I think that the proportion of routes where the first piece cannot be multidirectional is one of the classic exaggerations of rockclimbing.com. I can count on one hand the number of times I've had to slot an unopposed nut for my first piece, but I quickly run out of fingers and toes trying to count the times that I've seen other climbers do it when they could have either opposed the nut or placed a cam (and, yes, a cam in a vertical crack is usually good enough for this purpose). Jay
And I've done it only a handful of times as well. I was neither trying to espouse a random proportion of times it happens nor exaggerating it's existence. I was merely saying that it does happen. Out of those times that I have slotted a nut (btw a nut CAN be multidirectional), it was usually to protect one move or sequence and then I was looking for a multidirectional SECOND piece.
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jt512
Dec 17, 2009, 9:34 PM
Post #129 of 144
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blueeyedclimber wrote: btw a nut CAN be multidirectional
Was that supposed to be for my edification?
Jay
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dugl33
Dec 17, 2009, 10:00 PM
Post #130 of 144
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I think many accidents / epics are the result of a series of missteps or less than ideal choices. I've been able to trace this with the f ups of others and my own epics as well.
In this case...
step 0. leader misjudges risk, own abilities, or both
step 1. leader skips the intermediate pro
step 2. leader runs-it out all the way to the next bolt
step 3. leader takes an armload of slack to clip (apparently with a less than great stance)
step 4. leader blows the clip with slack out!
Jab, jab, knock-out punch. The leader blew the clip, and this simply wasn't an option given the run out and the skipped pro opportunity.
Any contribution to the f up from the belayer in this case is secondary and hard to prove with what's known, yet this has been the primary focus of the thread. The leader pushed into a don't f-up situation, and then proceeded to do exactly that.
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 17, 2009, 10:41 PM
Post #131 of 144
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jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: btw a nut CAN be multidirectional Was that supposed to be for my edification? Jay
That depends. Did you learn anything?
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jt512
Dec 17, 2009, 11:03 PM
Post #132 of 144
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blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: btw a nut CAN be multidirectional Was that supposed to be for my edification? Jay That depends. Did you learn anything?
No.
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 17, 2009, 11:09 PM
Post #133 of 144
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jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: btw a nut CAN be multidirectional Was that supposed to be for my edification? Jay That depends. Did you learn anything? No.
Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old.
Josh
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jt512
Dec 17, 2009, 11:12 PM
Post #134 of 144
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blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: btw a nut CAN be multidirectional Was that supposed to be for my edification? Jay That depends. Did you learn anything? No. Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old. Josh
Show me where I nitpicked.
Jay
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 17, 2009, 11:16 PM
Post #135 of 144
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jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: btw a nut CAN be multidirectional Was that supposed to be for my edification? Jay That depends. Did you learn anything? No. Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old. Josh Show me where I nitpicked. Jay
You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.
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jt512
Dec 17, 2009, 11:21 PM
Post #136 of 144
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blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: btw a nut CAN be multidirectional Was that supposed to be for my edification? Jay That depends. Did you learn anything? No. Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old. Josh Show me where I nitpicked. Jay You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick.
Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking.
Jay
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 17, 2009, 11:26 PM
Post #137 of 144
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jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: btw a nut CAN be multidirectional Was that supposed to be for my edification? Jay That depends. Did you learn anything? No. Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old. Josh Show me where I nitpicked. Jay You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick. Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking. Jay
Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?
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jt512
Dec 17, 2009, 11:30 PM
Post #138 of 144
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blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: btw a nut CAN be multidirectional Was that supposed to be for my edification? Jay That depends. Did you learn anything? No. Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old. Josh Show me where I nitpicked. Jay You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick. Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking. Jay Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?
I didn't make any negative comments. I just asked if your comment was intended specifically for me.
Jay
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 17, 2009, 11:31 PM
Post #139 of 144
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jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: btw a nut CAN be multidirectional Was that supposed to be for my edification? Jay That depends. Did you learn anything? No. Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old. Josh Show me where I nitpicked. Jay You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick. Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking. Jay Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it? I didn't make any negative comments. I just asked if your comment was intended specifically for me. Jay
No, it wasn't. I guess we're done here.
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boymeetsrock
Dec 18, 2009, 1:16 AM
Post #140 of 144
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blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: btw a nut CAN be multidirectional Was that supposed to be for my edification? Jay That depends. Did you learn anything? No. Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old. Josh Show me where I nitpicked. Jay You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick. Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking. Jay Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it? I didn't make any negative comments. I just asked if your comment was intended specifically for me. Jay No, it wasn't. I guess we're done here.
*damn*
I though you had a chance there Josh. I was rooting for you!
If you want to call Jay out though, you have to simplify every statement down to its most basic point. Can't give that guy anything to work with! 
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zeke_sf
Dec 18, 2009, 12:26 PM
Post #141 of 144
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boymeetsrock wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: jt512 wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: btw a nut CAN be multidirectional Was that supposed to be for my edification? Jay That depends. Did you learn anything? No. Other than being upset that you think I may have been inferring that you might not know something, do you have any problem with anything else that I said? This incessant nitpicking is getting old. Josh Show me where I nitpicked. Jay You pick out parts of posts that you feel you can make a negative comment on and leave the rest out. I was merely commenting that nuts can be multi-directional because many people don't know that. You took it personally. Nitpick. Well, I could correct your definition of nitpicking, but I guess that would be nitpicking. Jay Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it? I didn't make any negative comments. I just asked if your comment was intended specifically for me. Jay No, it wasn't. I guess we're done here. I though you had a chance there Josh. I was rooting for you! If you want to call Jay out though, you have to simplify every statement down to its most basic point. Can't give that guy anything to work with!
You ignorant bitch.
Hmmm... I believe that's the lean core of almost every JT512 post I've ever read. At least it's an ethos, I guess.
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olderic
Dec 18, 2009, 4:25 PM
Post #142 of 144
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blueeyedclimber wrote: Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it?
That's easy. The "word" would be JT512. In fact nit-picking seems to be his only skill.
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boymeetsrock
Dec 18, 2009, 4:48 PM
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Heh. Say what you will about the man, Dude... At least he has an ethos. 
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blueeyedclimber
Dec 19, 2009, 12:11 AM
Post #144 of 144
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olderic wrote: blueeyedclimber wrote: Yes, I guess it would be. Having had a child who actually had nits this Fall maybe I should be more familiar with the definition. What word would you have used for someone who loves to pick out things and make negative comments just for the sake of it? That's easy. The "word" would be JT512. In fact nit-picking seems to be his only skill.
Now, Eric, I think we already determined that Jay doesn't nit pick. I mean when you take out nits, you want to get EVERY last one. Jay only picks out certain nits. You know, the ones who can't spell, misuse words, or don't agree with him.
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