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jakk


Dec 18, 2009, 5:08 PM
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Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping?
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A few years ago a friend of mine told me it is best to avoid clipping nuts with a wire gate. I never really thought much more of it but was just playing around with some, and it does indeed seem to be the case that a wire gate biner on a thin wire unclips more easily then a solid gate.

Any experience with this? Do people try to avoid clipping wires with wire gates?


marc801


Dec 18, 2009, 5:31 PM
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Re: [jakk] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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jakk wrote:
A few years ago a friend of mine told me it is best to avoid clipping nuts with a wire gate. I never really thought much more of it but was just playing around with some, and it does indeed seem to be the case that a wire gate biner on a thin wire unclips more easily then a solid gate.

Any experience with this? Do people try to avoid clipping wires with wire gates?
No.


nikmit


Dec 19, 2009, 12:29 AM
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Re: [jakk] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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jakk wrote:
A few years ago a friend of mine told me it is best to avoid clipping nuts with a wire gate. I never really thought much more of it but was just playing around with some, and it does indeed seem to be the case that a wire gate biner on a thin wire unclips more easily then a solid gate.

Any experience with this? Do people try to avoid clipping wires with wire gates?
In my experience it's easier to lose nuts when they are racked on a wire gate carabiner. A friend of mine lost couple of nuts this way before switches on solid gate.
I rack my nuts on solid gate ovals. I try to have four ovals on my harness on trad and alpine routes, because if needed I can use them as rappel/belay device.


qwert


Dec 19, 2009, 6:37 AM
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Re: [nikmit] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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So are we talking about racking, or clipping as in clipping a draw to a nut?

For racking: Seems like this is true, albeit i cannot judge how big the issue is. Wasnt there a thread a while ago about loosing nuts, where a few people explained that racking on wires is no problem?

For clipping draws: Given that wiregates generally are consideres easier to clip as solid gates, it stands to reason that they might also be unclppid easier.
However i have never observed that myself, or heard of that, so i am using wiregates.

qwert


notapplicable


Dec 19, 2009, 8:33 AM
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Re: [jakk] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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I've always wonder if the (for all intents and purposes) flat surface created by the wire gate would allow for rope, webbing or wires to come to rest against it and unclip easier than their rounded solid gate counterparts.

That said, I have never heard of it happening with increased frequency and I have never experienced it myself so I guess I'm doubtful. An interesting question though. I wonder if any of the major manufacturer have made their testing practices and results available concerning this particular "issue".


onrockandice


Dec 19, 2009, 8:36 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
That said, I have never heard of it happening with increased frequency and I have never experienced it myself so I guess I'm doubtful. An interesting question though. I wonder if any of the major manufacturer have made their testing practices and results available concerning this particular "issue".

Wasn't the big "home run" for the wire gate that it fixed gate flutter?


notapplicable


Dec 19, 2009, 9:00 AM
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Re: [onrockandice] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
That said, I have never heard of it happening with increased frequency and I have never experienced it myself so I guess I'm doubtful. An interesting question though. I wonder if any of the major manufacturer have made their testing practices and results available concerning this particular "issue".

Wasn't the big "home run" for the wire gate that it fixed gate flutter?

That and not freezing up but I'm thinking that gate flutter (which is a function of interactions between the biner and gate and how energy is transmitted between the two) and the actual interaction between the gate and another material (rope, webbing or cable) impacting it is different question altogether.


marc801


Dec 19, 2009, 9:12 AM
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But the OP was asking if people worry about this and try to avoid clipping wires with wire gate biners. Like I said: no.


mambembe


Dec 19, 2009, 10:58 AM
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Re: [jakk] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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I saw a biner came unclip from a nut one time. And it was the only gear I had after the belay, 10 meters below, while I was hand drilling to place a bolt. Scary.
But I donīt remember if it was a solid or wiregate. What I do remember is that it was a sport draw. If you play around with the nuts and draws you can see that it is not difficult to happens, specially with wiregates. What I try to do from that day is to use longer slings on nuts.


onrockandice


Dec 19, 2009, 11:48 AM
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Re: [notapplicable] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
That and not freezing up but I'm thinking that gate flutter (which is a function of interactions between the biner and gate and how energy is transmitted between the two) and the actual interaction between the gate and another material (rope, webbing or cable) impacting it is different question altogether.

Yeah you are right. I was just trying to understand the benefits of wiregates (easy clip, flutter, weight) over standard solid gate biners.

It does kind of stand the potential especially with micronuts and smaller wires that they could possibly edge under the gate and get out. That said, I love my wire gates and use them 100%. When I think about it all my trad draws are solid gates at the piece (nut, stopper, cam, whatever) and are wiregates at the rope. I've always liked having my draws (quickdraws included) set up like that.

I'm not going to lose sleep over this one though. Guess I don't really have to the way I run my draws though.


notapplicable


Dec 19, 2009, 12:14 PM
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Re: [onrockandice] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
That and not freezing up but I'm thinking that gate flutter (which is a function of interactions between the biner and gate and how energy is transmitted between the two) and the actual interaction between the gate and another material (rope, webbing or cable) impacting it is different question altogether.

Yeah you are right. I was just trying to understand the benefits of wiregates (easy clip, flutter, weight) over standard solid gate biners.

It does kind of stand the potential especially with micronuts and smaller wires that they could possibly edge under the gate and get out. That said, I love my wire gates and use them 100%. When I think about it all my trad draws are solid gates at the piece (nut, stopper, cam, whatever) and are wiregates at the rope. I've always liked having my draws (quickdraws included) set up like that.

I'm not going to lose sleep over this one though. Guess I don't really have to the way I run my draws though.

I agree I think its a none issue and not something that effects the choices I make when purchasing gear.

For the sake of playing devils advocate though, you did mention "easier clipping" as one benefit to a wire gate. Is it possible that the same properties which make them easier to clip would translate to a greater tendency to unclip in a backclipping or similar scenario?


marc801


Dec 19, 2009, 5:38 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
For the sake of playing devils advocate though, you did mention "easier clipping" as one benefit to a wire gate. Is it possible that the same properties which make them easier to clip would translate to a greater tendency to unclip in a backclipping or similar scenario?
No. They're easier to clip because of ergonomics, specifically the way our thumb and fingers interact with the gate.


hafilax


Dec 19, 2009, 6:37 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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I think that the reason why wiregates are easier to clip is because the rope hooks into the notch between the nose and the gate easily like the basket of a bent gate. There is no reason to think that this would also make them easier to unclip.

I think the issue with clipping wires would be the same as for using wiregates on bolts in that the gap at the notch in the nose can get hooked up on the wire or the bolt if it's the thin type. I believe that this has resulted in a few broken biners on bolts but I haven't heard of any problems on wires. It also might not be an issue for the notchless wiregates.


notapplicable


Dec 19, 2009, 7:08 PM
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Re: [marc801] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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marc801 wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
For the sake of playing devils advocate though, you did mention "easier clipping" as one benefit to a wire gate. Is it possible that the same properties which make them easier to clip would translate to a greater tendency to unclip in a backclipping or similar scenario?
No. They're easier to clip because of ergonomics, specifically the way our thumb and fingers interact with the gate.

Well you got the ergonomics part right but when clipping its usually the rope that actually interacts with the gate, not the thumb or fingers.


notapplicable


Dec 19, 2009, 7:22 PM
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Re: [hafilax] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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hafilax wrote:
I think that the reason why wiregates are easier to clip is because the rope hooks into the notch between the nose and the gate easily like the basket of a bent gate. There is no reason to think that this would also make them easier to unclip.

Why not? If that "notch" or the flat plane created by the wires allows the rope to come to rest against it and is therefore easier to clip, wouldn't it follow that it would do the same in a backclipping or similar situation?

In reply to:
I think the issue with clipping wires would be the same as for using wiregates on bolts in that the gap at the notch in the nose can get hooked up on the wire or the bolt if it's the thin type. I believe that this has resulted in a few broken biners on bolts but I haven't heard of any problems on wires. It also might not be an issue for the notchless wiregates.

Intersting thought.


(This post was edited by notapplicable on Dec 19, 2009, 7:23 PM)


onrockandice


Dec 20, 2009, 8:30 PM
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Re: [notapplicable] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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notapplicable wrote:
Is it possible that the same properties which make them easier to clip would translate to a greater tendency to unclip in a backclipping or similar scenario?

I could see that yes. I think there are trade-offs for everything. I mean really we could be "bomber" if we put lockers on every piece. Cool


notapplicable


Dec 20, 2009, 10:41 PM
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Re: [onrockandice] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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onrockandice wrote:
notapplicable wrote:
Is it possible that the same properties which make them easier to clip would translate to a greater tendency to unclip in a backclipping or similar scenario?

I could see that yes. I think there are trade-offs for everything. I mean really we could be "bomber" if we put lockers on every piece. Cool

YOU DON'T??

Oh your sooooooo gonna die...


bill413


Dec 21, 2009, 9:20 AM
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Don't you know that the gates on lockers can be levered open? That's why I prefer to weld my links shut.


dingus


Dec 21, 2009, 9:28 AM
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Re: Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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Racking wired nuts on wired gate biners is less secure than racking wired nuts on solid gate biners. Doesn't matter that consensus on noob.com says.... I speaketh the truth.

Once off the rack and in the rock, wire gates are neither better nor worse than solid gates, with respect to clipping wires.

And gate flutter is a bugaboo bullshit - yet another vexing problem that really didn't need solving, imo. Its just marketing hype anyway.

Now of course some of you are going to feel compelled to defend Black Diamond Marketing. Go ahead. Enjoy.

In the process show me ONE field study on gate flutter for lead climbing protection carabiners... just one.

Otherwise your defense will be on the back of a single page glossy slick marketing paper.

DMT


Durin


Dec 21, 2009, 5:24 PM
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Re: [dingus] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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Dingus, you haven't had an older biner get "lazy" and not be springy?

I'm not going to call it flutter, whatever that means. But I've had it happen to me with a few biners in particular. Most were lockers with "normal" gates.

I'd rather go climbing than find a field study about carabiners :P

The only carabiner I've really had problems racking nuts with is a Wild Country Helium, as it avoids the "notch" in the nose.


dingus


Dec 21, 2009, 5:56 PM
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Re: [Durin] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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Yes but I've had wire gates get lazy too brother. That's not what they mean by flutter though.

Cheers
DMT


dugl33


Dec 21, 2009, 6:12 PM
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Re: [jakk] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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Self unclipping is slightly more likely with wire gates, bent gates, and biners with prominent noses. Odds of unclipping are pretty low regardless of biner choice as the biner has to be twisted and up a bit relative to the nut cable, right as the load hits, which is not too likely in all reality.

You could flip the top biner over after you clip it, although the ultra-light wire gate biners don't always stay put in the orientation you leave them.

Plenty of nuts have come out though in shallow placements when not well set or runnered, and the rope levers them up and out of the rock. This is the more realistic concern by far. I usually set nuts with a tug and give a little outward pull to check it. Keep your body in a bit as you move past it, and don't let your rack or anything catch on it. You can also give the rope a little jiggle if the runner is starting to ride up. Personally I wouldn't worry about clipping them with wire gates.


vegastradguy


Dec 22, 2009, 7:59 AM
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jakk wrote:
A few years ago a friend of mine told me it is best to avoid clipping nuts with a wire gate. I never really thought much more of it but was just playing around with some, and it does indeed seem to be the case that a wire gate biner on a thin wire unclips more easily then a solid gate.

Any experience with this? Do people try to avoid clipping wires with wire gates?

damn near lost half my stoppers off my rack once because i had 'em racked on a wiregate. i keep them on a BD positron these days. i had heard the same thing, but scoffed at it just days prior.

dingus is right, though- once off the rack, i see no issue with clipping a wire with a wiregate- the torque needed to unclip it just isnt there once the stopper is places (or really shouldnt be there!)


dugl33


Dec 23, 2009, 12:09 PM
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Re: [vegastradguy] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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vegastradguy wrote:
jakk wrote:
A few years ago a friend of mine told me it is best to avoid clipping nuts with a wire gate. I never really thought much more of it but was just playing around with some, and it does indeed seem to be the case that a wire gate biner on a thin wire unclips more easily then a solid gate.

Any experience with this? Do people try to avoid clipping wires with wire gates?

damn near lost half my stoppers off my rack once because i had 'em racked on a wiregate. i keep them on a BD positron these days. i had heard the same thing, but scoffed at it just days prior.

dingus is right, though- once off the rack, i see no issue with clipping a wire with a wiregate- the torque needed to unclip it just isnt there once the stopper is places (or really shouldnt be there!)

The standard solid gate oval has always been and will always be the best racking biner for a set of nuts. And unless you're a klutz, you can carry a full set racked on a single biner. If you have doubles then split them up.



Yes, I know they're a bit heavy, but its just one biner...
Attachments: bd_oval.jpg (11.8 KB)


dingus


Dec 23, 2009, 12:21 PM
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Re: [dugl33] Wire gate on wire - danger of unclipping? [In reply to]
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dugl33 wrote:
vegastradguy wrote:
jakk wrote:
A few years ago a friend of mine told me it is best to avoid clipping nuts with a wire gate. I never really thought much more of it but was just playing around with some, and it does indeed seem to be the case that a wire gate biner on a thin wire unclips more easily then a solid gate.

Any experience with this? Do people try to avoid clipping wires with wire gates?

damn near lost half my stoppers off my rack once because i had 'em racked on a wiregate. i keep them on a BD positron these days. i had heard the same thing, but scoffed at it just days prior.

dingus is right, though- once off the rack, i see no issue with clipping a wire with a wiregate- the torque needed to unclip it just isnt there once the stopper is places (or really shouldnt be there!)

The standard solid gate oval has always been and will always be the best racking biner for a set of nuts. And unless you're a klutz, you can carry a full set racked on a single biner. If you have doubles then split them up.

[Inline bd_oval.jpg]

Yes, I know they're a bit heavy, but its just one biner...

Nope. Keylock gated biners are superior for racking nuts in every way. Sorry.

DMT

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