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Another tibloc question... sorry
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evanwish


Jan 6, 2010, 6:59 PM
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Another tibloc question... sorry
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I'm aware of the debate of how safe (or not safe) it is to use a tibloc for adding some safety to simu-climbing, but would using this technique on a double 7.5mm rope system be cutting it to close?

if so, what are some of the alternatives?


We just want to be able to protect short harder sections out of long easy eastern sierra routes without having to pitch it out.


What about the Garda Hitch? (Alpine hitch)
I was playing around with it (on ground of course) and it locks solid. Of course it can lock up if it weighted hard enough, but then you take a nut tool to it and get it moving again.
It fed the two 7.5mm ropes PERFECTLY..
Have there been any tests on clipping the rope as a garda hitch every few hundred feet for simuclimbing?

of course, the rule still is DO NOT FALL.



(This post was edited by evanwish on Jan 13, 2010, 1:39 PM)


evanwish


Jan 6, 2010, 7:00 PM
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Re: [evanwish] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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if this is incredibly dumb, i understand Blush


quiteatingmysteak


Jan 6, 2010, 7:08 PM
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Re: [evanwish] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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A better option would be to get that mini-ascender thingy from Wild Country. It weighs barely more, is a toothless cam, and is more designed for that kind of use. The problem can be that they create a ton of rope drag with a ~9mil rope as I have seen, so using a skinnier rope might be better. Bring your floss into a gear shop and run it through, see if it goes through smooth enough for ya (nomad ventures carries these, I know for a fact).

The other thing... of course...

if you are simulclimbing, the second CANNOT fall. if you are climbing on a 7.7mil line, you BOTH can't fall. Which route do you have in mind? I've done routes where I've simul'd most of it, where I've used a 7.7mil rope, and both, its all very situational.

Once, on tahquitz, I brought a 100' 9.8mil rope and went with a friend to fire off a bunch of the easy classics in a day. When i passed what I thought was the crux for the routes, I would either (A) build a proper belay and snag the rest of my gear - very fast with a 100foot rope, or (B) I brought a mini-traxion (kinda heavy) and stuck that above two cruxes. Its not ideal, and probably not what they were designed for, but if they are very easy routes that you are confident on, and the other alternative is nothing at all, it can work.


evanwish


Jan 6, 2010, 7:54 PM
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Re: [quiteatingmysteak] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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ok, the Sport Chalet i used to work at has one left, i'll go check it out

and thats for sure, but in the alpine terrain i always run the plan, NOONE falls!
We're going to the Palisades and going to check off North Palisade (Doors of Perception III 5.8) and Starlight Peak (the traverse route easy 5th class) the first day, and Thunderbolt the second day


dugl33


Jan 6, 2010, 8:00 PM
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Re: [quiteatingmysteak] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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I would trust the wild country mk-2 for this before trusting a tibloc, but even the mk-2 is only rated for ropes 8.5 mm to 11 mm.

Also, just to clarify, I'm not sure why everyone claims the mk-2 is toothless. It does indeed have teeth. They are not horribly aggressive teeth but teeth nonetheless.

So, for my 2 cents, you can probably reasonably argue that due to the two rope system, by having an mk-2 on only one strand, you are not taking a huge risk with this idea. You are risking damaging your rope, but you are climbing on two. I don't see why the leader can't fall, though.

If you can get some scrap 7.7, you might find a way to safely test it, say a lob of a few feet, and see what it does to the rope.

I think the tibloc is a bad bad idea for this application. The only thing these have going for them is being light. Not worth it.

Good luck.


quiteatingmysteak


Jan 6, 2010, 8:35 PM
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Re: [dugl33] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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dugl33 wrote:
I would trust the wild country mk-2 for this before trusting a tibloc, but even the mk-2 is only rated for ropes 8.5 mm to 11 mm.

Also, just to clarify, I'm not sure why everyone claims the mk-2 is toothless. It does indeed have teeth. They are not horribly aggressive teeth but teeth nonetheless.

So, for my 2 cents, you can probably reasonably argue that due to the two rope system, by having an mk-2 on only one strand, you are not taking a huge risk with this idea. You are risking damaging your rope, but you are climbing on two. I don't see why the leader can't fall, though.

If you can get some scrap 7.7, you might find a way to safely test it, say a lob of a few feet, and see what it does to the rope.

I think the tibloc is a bad bad idea for this application. The only thing these have going for them is being light. Not worth it.

Good luck.

cams and teeth are two different things, and i think they are teeth. correct me if im wrong.


dugl33


Jan 6, 2010, 9:18 PM
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Re: [quiteatingmysteak] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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quiteatingmysteak wrote:

cams and teeth are two different things, and i think they are teeth. correct me if im wrong.

Not sure I follow you. Above you stated the wildcountry ropemen don't have teeth. I'm just pointing out that they do. Not cams or teeth, but rather a cam with teeth.

Forgive the lousy pic... but the bumpy lil sharks teeth...


Attachments: mk2teeth.jpg (23.2 KB)


quiteatingmysteak


Jan 6, 2010, 9:24 PM
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Re: [dugl33] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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no the other one, the red ascender thingy. there are 2.


dugl33


Jan 6, 2010, 9:36 PM
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Re: [quiteatingmysteak] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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quiteatingmysteak wrote:
no the other one, the red ascender thingy. there are 2.

Hmmm. You got me there. I know the mk1 is not recommended for skinny ropes.

See...

http://www.wildcountry.co.uk/...entBelay/RopemanMK1/

Are you not referring to one of these?


quiteatingmysteak


Jan 6, 2010, 9:50 PM
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Re: [dugl33] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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Yeah, the MK-1.

That baby.

Just try to squeeze an 11mil rope thru that. It takes liek 40lbs of force. Not really that great.

Again another issue of intended use vs plausible use. If you came into my shop I would tell you that it would only be used for X, then wink-wink.


bill123


Jan 7, 2010, 4:12 AM
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Re: [evanwish] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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Check out kong duck.


evanwish


Jan 7, 2010, 9:16 AM
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Re: [bill123] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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oh nice! i haven't seen that one before, thank you


dugl33


Jan 7, 2010, 9:46 AM
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Re: [bill123] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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bill123 wrote:
Check out kong duck.

Hey that is nice. Biggest rope diameter range I've seen, full rope wrap, works on webbing (huh!?), nice simple design. Little lighter than the MK2, and looks easier to handle.

If I wasn't already such a dirty gear whore I'd buy that sucker. Maybe next year. Tongue


edge


Jan 7, 2010, 9:50 AM
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Re: [bill123] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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bill123 wrote:
Check out kong duck.

Pic




sungam


Jan 7, 2010, 9:57 AM
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Re: [dugl33] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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dugl33 wrote:
bill123 wrote:
Check out kong duck.

Hey that is nice. Biggest rope diameter range I've seen, full rope wrap, works on webbing (huh!?), nice simple design. Little lighter than the MK2, and looks easier to handle.

If I wasn't already such a dirty gear whore I'd buy that sucker. Maybe next year. Tongue
I can't help but notice the comments on WC's website about not using the MK1 for simulclimbing based on the fact that it is soft-ish alloy, then noticing the duck is made of light alloy. I wonder if it would be burly enough to hold a leader fall, or if being loaded in that strange way would make it blow.


hafilax


Jan 7, 2010, 10:22 AM
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Re: [sungam] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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My understanding of the use of tiblocs etc in simulclimbing is that they are used to protect the leader from a fall by the second. The second is the protection for the leader. The device shouldn't see much more than a hard second fall.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I've read about the second climbing with a GriGri or Cinch on their harness so that they can have some measure of control over the slack in the system.

One strategy is to put the stronger climber as the second. Shouldn't be a big deal when simulclimbing since it should be well within the abilities of both members of the team. I think I would choose that over futzing with something that could jam or even cut the rope.If the second can't lead it I don't think they should be simulclimbing. I've seen seconds that looked scared out of their whits as their being hauled up like an unwilling dog.


dugl33


Jan 7, 2010, 11:45 AM
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Re: [sungam] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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sungam wrote:
dugl33 wrote:
bill123 wrote:
Check out kong duck.

Hey that is nice. Biggest rope diameter range I've seen, full rope wrap, works on webbing (huh!?), nice simple design. Little lighter than the MK2, and looks easier to handle.

If I wasn't already such a dirty gear whore I'd buy that sucker. Maybe next year. Tongue
I can't help but notice the comments on WC's website about not using the MK1 for simulclimbing based on the fact that it is soft-ish alloy, then noticing the duck is made of light alloy. I wonder if it would be burly enough to hold a leader fall, or if being loaded in that strange way would make it blow.

Yeah, I wouldn't bother with the MK1. The MK2 though does feel pretty burly -- steel cam, stiff spring, full rope wrap. The design of the duck sure seems nice but I haven't tried it. Hopefully the second isn't falling on it with huge force, and a leader fall (not directly on the device, obviously) shouldn't load it(?)

I haven't quite got my mind around if a leader fall could possibly load it at all, simply because a dynamic rope is going to initially travel upward and then stretch fairly uniformly over its full length. I'm experimenting with hanging the mk2 from a screamer to limit loading potential from a second's fall or a leader fall should the leader fall cause loading (which I doubt).

Not sure at what point the rigging is not worth the time and effort, although its really not much.


acorneau


Jan 7, 2010, 12:18 PM
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Re: Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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Just to throw some actual test results into the fray:

In the Tibloc instructions it shows load figures for different rope diameters:

FF1 with 80kg weight on 9mm rope (or thicker) yields "safety, no rupture of sheath" with an impact of 4 to 4.5kN.

FF0.5 was good for 8mm or thicker (3 to 3.7kN).

See the chart on the right-hand side of page 3:

http://petzl.com/...%20B01500-020799.pdf


dugl33


Jan 7, 2010, 12:52 PM
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Re: [acorneau] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
Just to throw some actual test results into the fray:

In the Tibloc instructions it shows load figures for different rope diameters:

FF1 with 80kg weight on 9mm rope (or thicker) yields "safety, no rupture of sheath" with an impact of 4 to 4.5kN.

FF0.5 was good for 8mm or thicker (3 to 3.7kN).

See the chart on the right-hand side of page 3:

http://petzl.com/...%20B01500-020799.pdf

Lets not confuse the conversation with facts. Wink

Seriously, though, just want to point out that the 8mm shows ok to 3kn, and breaks entirely at 4kn.

7.5 mm is outside the approved uses, and isn't even shown in the results. Your post somewhat implies that 8mm is ok up to 3.7 kn, which is not the case.

Cheers


patto


Jan 7, 2010, 1:30 PM
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Re: [evanwish] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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evanwish wrote:
I'm aware of the debate of how safe (or not safe) it is to use a tibloc for adding some safety to simu-climbing, but would using this technique on a double 7.5mm rope system be cutting it to close?

if so, what are some of the alternatives?


We just want to be able to protect short harder sections out of long easy eastern sierra routes without having to pitch it out.

You can still protect the harder sections if they are short without having to pitch it out. Just have the leader stop at a piece approximately when the second reaches the hard bit.

This is very easily managed if the rope is short (<25m) and if the gear is good. Both of which you want anyway.

This doesn't work if the sections you want protected are long, >5m as when the leader goes off belay there could be considerable slack.


dr_feelgood


Jan 7, 2010, 6:10 PM
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please die so that others may learn from your example.


acorneau


Jan 7, 2010, 6:37 PM
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dr_feelgood wrote:
please die so that others may learn from your example.


Ouch...


Lazlo


Jan 7, 2010, 6:43 PM
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acorneau wrote:
Just to throw some actual test results into the fray:

In the Tibloc instructions it shows load figures for different rope diameters:

FF1 with 80kg weight on 9mm rope (or thicker) yields "safety, no rupture of sheath" with an impact of 4 to 4.5kN.

FF0.5 was good for 8mm or thicker (3 to 3.7kN).

See the chart on the right-hand side of page 3:

http://petzl.com/...%20B01500-020799.pdf

I'm sure those results are with the Tibloc pre-engaged on the rope correctly. If the tibloc engaged on the rope perfectly every time, I wouldn't have given both of mine away.

The tibloc scares me because of it's tendency to only grab with the top two teeth, then when weighted, it will "chatter" down the rope, fraying it as it goes. I had to retire a rope because of this.


quiteatingmysteak


Jan 7, 2010, 6:47 PM
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dr_feelgood wrote:
please die so that others may learn from your example.


MODS!!! BAN HIM!!! SAVE US FROM OURSELVES!!


quiteatingmysteak


Jan 7, 2010, 6:49 PM
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Re: [hafilax] Another tibloc question... sorry [In reply to]
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hafilax wrote:
My understanding of the use of tiblocs etc in simulclimbing is that they are used to protect the leader from a fall by the second. The second is the protection for the leader. The device shouldn't see much more than a hard second fall.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think I've read about the second climbing with a GriGri or Cinch on their harness so that they can have some measure of control over the slack in the system.

One strategy is to put the stronger climber as the second. Shouldn't be a big deal when simulclimbing since it should be well within the abilities of both members of the team. I think I would choose that over futzing with something that could jam or even cut the rope.If the second can't lead it I don't think they should be simulclimbing. I've seen seconds that looked scared out of their whits as their being hauled up like an unwilling dog.

In Han's Florine's book he mentions that he climbs with a gri-gri and adjusts slack in the system... but he is Hans Florine. I would assume that my rope management isn't up to par with his systems, and out in the Sierra there are higher chances for the rope to get caught up underneath you (uh oh...)

and as far as a Cinch, that is not a self belay device (well, neither is a grigri, but I had some great tofurkey once...)

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