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climbingaz
Jan 15, 2010, 10:28 PM
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Just starting to put a shopping list together to get into aid climbing. Most recommended gear lists suggest having 30, 40, 50+ biners. I obviously know the amount will greatly depend upon the route in question, but what type would you purchase?
All ovals, all D's (bent gate, straight gate), some combination of them all?
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quiteatingmysteak
Jan 15, 2010, 11:12 PM
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climbingaz wrote: Just starting to put a shopping list together to get into aid climbing. Most recommended gear lists suggest having 30, 40, 50+ biners. I obviously know the amount will greatly depend upon the route in question, but what type would you purchase? All ovals, all D's (bent gate, straight gate), some combination of them all?
lighter usually better. With 50 biners hanging off of you its good to have a bit lighter setup. I like Oz biners, but if you are strapped for cash, try metolius FS. 7.50 bones, and only 22grams. The gates are pretty small for free climbing, some say, but I never have a problem with them. And while standing in aiders its not like you're hanging off of microcrimps trying to clip em.
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rock_fencer
Jan 16, 2010, 12:35 AM
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ovals are out, something about shifting i dont remember exactly. It wasnt a safety concern just the sound of a carabiner shifting.
I use whatever is on my free rack. lighter is better as mentioned above. i would probably shy away from the camp nano and metolius tiny biner as they are really small and not very versatile. Trangos superfly and the oz are almost full size and light. No need for bent gate anything.
im sure someone more experienced will chime in.
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johnwesely
Jan 16, 2010, 12:49 AM
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rock_fencer wrote: ovals are out, something about shifting i dont remember exactly. It wasnt a safety concern just the sound of a carabiner shifting. I use whatever is on my free rack. lighter is better as mentioned above. i would probably shy away from the camp nano and metolius tiny biner as they are really small and not very versatile. Trangos superfly and the oz are almost full size and light. No need for bent gate anything. im sure someone more experienced will chime in.
Aid climbers use ovals because they do not shift.
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rock_fencer
Jan 16, 2010, 1:03 AM
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i stand corrected, ovals wont shift its the D shaped biners that shift
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Lazlo
Jan 16, 2010, 1:40 AM
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BD Classic Ovals. $5.10
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sspssp
Jan 16, 2010, 1:45 AM
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Yea, ovals won't shift. But I don't find shifting to be that big of deal (unless on something really delicate/balance).
What I don't like about ovals is when you grab them in your hand, you have no idea which side the gate is on and which side the hinge is on. It is too easy to fumble something. But each to their own.
For the most part, I go with really light biners even if they have tiny gate openings and lack versatility. Weight is an issue. You can always have a couple of larger biners around that you save/use in more special cases. For instance, a really large biner for clipping in the aiders/daisy etc.
For instance, non-locking biners lack some versatility also. But would you really want to start up with 50 locking biners?
(This post was edited by sspssp on Jan 16, 2010, 1:46 AM)
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rock_fencer
Jan 16, 2010, 2:04 AM
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nope definately not, like i said i aid with my free rack which has maybe three ovals for racking nuts. everything else is asymetrical D and im in the process of lightening the loads into lighter biners. I like the Oz and find that the nano is too small for me.
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floating_bottle
Jan 16, 2010, 3:44 AM
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Ovals are the way to go.
sspssp wrote: ...What I don't like about ovals is when you grab them in your hand, you have no idea which side the gate is on and which side the hinge is on. It is too easy to fumble something. But each to their own...
Two "tricks":
1) use wire gate ovals (slightly lighter, too)!
2, and I just realized this) when I grab a biner w/o looking, I squeeze it slightly and can immediately tell which side the gate's on and which end the hinge is on. FWIW.
My 2 cents
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malcolm777b
Jan 16, 2010, 6:23 AM
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mr8615 wrote: Use ovals. When that shift happens and you're on a questionable hook or head, if it doesn't blow, you'll still need to change your pants. I use ovals as my free biners, rack with neutrinos, and just use a hodgepodge of biners for my runners. You'll find the only biner that matters is your aider/daisy biner (that's the only place shift will happen).
I was just going to say the same thing. When I aid, I use ovals on the aider and light wiregates on pro/runners when clipping the rope.
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climbingaz
Jan 16, 2010, 6:58 AM
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Thanks for all the input guys! I obviously realize that everyone is gonna have some personal preferences, but just to clarify one thing:
Am I hearing most everyone recommends using locking ovals for the daisy/aider biner?
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mr8615
Jan 16, 2010, 2:34 PM
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They don't have to be locking ovals, regular ovals will do fine. For my system, I have three ladders with ovals on each, and usually a few hooks or cam hooks on each oval (depending on the pitch). I have two adjustable daisys girthed to the tie-ins with lockers on each. I'll clip one daisy to one ladder and the third ladder floats as necessary. This way, when I'm at an anchor I can just reach up with a daisy and viola, I'm secure.
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xtrmecat
Jan 18, 2010, 4:46 PM
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mr8615 wrote: They don't have to be locking ovals, regular ovals will do fine. For my system, I have three ladders with ovals on each, and usually a few hooks or cam hooks on each oval (depending on the pitch). I have two adjustable daisys girthed to the tie-ins with lockers on each. I'll clip one daisy to one ladder and the third ladder floats as necessary. This way, when I'm at an anchor I can just reach up with a daisy and viola, I'm secure.
Umm, this is not even close to being true. Do not use any daisy as your secure attachment to a wall. You will help make the statistics eventually. Daisys, according to every manufacturer, are not for anchoring you to the wall, and I wish people would stop posting this as advice.
What kind of biners? I have a good mix of every thing. Ovals are on the ends of my aiders and adjustable daisys. And they make a nice chain that I hang from the right gear loops of my harness to use as needed. Small wiregates is what 90% of my gear is racked on. A few larger wiregates get to ride on the harness and get deployed as needed for runners, etc. There are a good mix of solid gate and wire gate larger that go along as well. My answer is not about weight, for god sake the kitchen sink is only a couple more pounds, when you look at the size of the rack, sub reack. pig, wall rope and tag line, you personal day water and snacks, kneepads, gloves, knife, headlight. How much are you going to save on micro/expensive wiregates again. Hmmmmm. Yea, OK, good choice.?,,??
Don't forget to bring twice to three times as many big lockers as you could possibly dream you will need. And then when you run out, you'll understand why I say this. Williams are nice, and so are the huge pearabiners by OP. A half dozen or more Petzyl biggies usually go too. Auto lockers for important things, pig, ledge, foodbag, etc., along with about a half dozen to dozen smaller lockers just because.
Spend a night out and the free biners are a premium, not a piece to hang up out of the way. Again My $0.02.
Bob
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malcolm777b
Jan 18, 2010, 6:13 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: Umm, this is not even close to being true. Do not use any daisy as your secure attachment to a wall. You will help make the statistics eventually. Daisys, according to every manufacturer, are not for anchoring you to the wall, and I wish people would stop posting this as advice.
Metolius Monster Daisy has an end to end rating of 15.5 kN. Metolius PAS has a rating of 18 kN. As I understand it, the reason why it is not for anchoring you to the wall is the single loop rating of the daisy (1.3 kN on the Monster Daisy above).
I am completely comfortable using my Monster Daisy as a anchor point as long as *I make damn sure I'm not clipped across two or more loops*. If I'm going to be belaying where I might need to catch a leader, I have a habit of always being tied in with the rope. Some other daisy chains have a lower rating (approaching 10kN), so I think the appropriate message is to know the limitations of your gear and use accordingly.
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climbingaz
Jan 18, 2010, 6:17 PM
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Great info...keep it coming!
After reading all the posts, I went ahead and placed an order for 20 Black Diamond wiregate ovals. If anyone is interested, I got them for $4.47/each from Campmor....they're cosmetic seconds...seemed like a good price.
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climbingaz
Jan 18, 2010, 6:23 PM
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Regarding the daisy chains and anchors....On multipitch climbs, I've always secured myself to the wall with my daisies only long enough to get comfortable at the anchor/build up the anchor and then tie myself off with the climbing rope. I'll usually go ahead and leave my daisies attached as a backup, but my rope is always my primary securing point to the anchor.
If I'm just single pitch sport climbing, I'll just use my two daisies and the anchor chains/bolts while I get ready to be lowered or rap down.
I wonder if this is the prevailing method?
(This post was edited by climbingaz on Jan 18, 2010, 6:27 PM)
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malcolm777b
Jan 18, 2010, 6:24 PM
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climbingaz wrote: Great info...keep it coming! After reading all the posts, I went ahead and placed an order for 20 Black Diamond wiregate ovals. If anyone is interested, I got them for $4.47/each from Campmor....they're cosmetic seconds...seemed like a good price.
These are the same biners that I rack my nuts on. I had a bad habit of dropping nuts when racked on a standard biner. I've never aided on the wiregate ovals though; I use solid gate ovals. I don't see why it would make a difference as long as the biner remained oriented the right way.
I might need to take advantage of that deal. Cosmetic second BDs are the way to go. Sometimes I can't even figure out what the cosmetic defect even was. It seems that the most common defect is a partially incomplete letter on the stamping.
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bandycoot
Jan 18, 2010, 6:51 PM
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climbingaz wrote: Just starting to put a shopping list together to get into aid climbing. Most recommended gear lists suggest having 30, 40, 50+ biners. I obviously know the amount will greatly depend upon the route in question, but what type would you purchase? All ovals, all D's (bent gate, straight gate), some combination of them all?
I don't aid a ton, but I never had a problem with using the smaller wiregate carabiners. Personally, unless there is a very specific reason not to use one, all my carabiners are 30g or less. The only exception I can think of are my very few trango ultralight lockers and my belay carabiner. If you buy heavier carabiners, like ovals, not only are they heavier, but they are more awkward to clip when free climbing. Just get the carabiners that are the most functional for the most uses.
Josh
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sspssp
Jan 18, 2010, 7:09 PM
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malcolm777b wrote: mr8615 wrote: Use ovals. When that shift happens and you're on a questionable hook or head, if it doesn't blow, you'll still need to change your pants. I use ovals as my free biners, rack with neutrinos, and just use a hodgepodge of biners for my runners. You'll find the only biner that matters is your aider/daisy biner (that's the only place shift will happen). I was just going to say the same thing. When I aid, I use ovals on the aider and light wiregates on pro/runners when clipping the rope.
I have gotten used enough to the biner shifting that not only do I not need to change pants, but I don't think about it. Which isn't to say that I like it...
I actually have a large, oversized HB/pear shaped biner on the end of my daisy/aider combo. In order to conveniently get more cams on it for crack jugging. By itself, it does not shift a lot. Although every now and then it seems I still end up with my weight on a D biner that shifts (sometimes it is easier to clip a biner to biner than get the biner into the sling).
I'm not doing any delicate, hairy A4. But if I was doing delicate hook/head placements, it wouldn't be a big deal to switch to a couple of ovals. Somebody who is asking about biners to start an aid rack isn't going to be either (at least for a while). I can see getting a rack for future expectations, but I still say go small and light for the majaority of the biner rack.
I gave up on ovals long before the wire gates hit the market. I can see how that would help a lot with knowing which side the gate is on. However, it would be no different from a symetric D. And I much prefer the asymetric Ds.
Each to their own...
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shimanilami
Jan 18, 2010, 7:46 PM
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I use wire ovals for my aiders and nuts. I've got wire D's (e.g. heliums) for free biners. All my cams, etc. are on small wire D's (e.g. nuetrinos and superflies).
I bring about a dozen quickdraws while aiding. One side is a wire and the other is solid. I prefer solid gates if I'm going to be clipping biner-to-biner.
I carry about 3 fat lockers (Petzl Williams) for master points. I carry another ~6 small lockers for anchor building and anchoring in. I'll bring another dozen small lockers along for general use.
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GearCoop
Jan 18, 2010, 8:37 PM
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If you want a light and cheap D, check out the Wild Country Astros. $7, 29 grams, well hooded nose to protect the gate (better than the oz), very good handling and clipping action. One of the best and cheapest biners out there and not very well known.
Disclosure: We sell these, as well as almost every other biner.
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mr8615
Jan 19, 2010, 1:28 AM
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xtrmecat wrote: mr8615 wrote: They don't have to be locking ovals, regular ovals will do fine. For my system, I have three ladders with ovals on each, and usually a few hooks or cam hooks on each oval (depending on the pitch). I have two adjustable daisys girthed to the tie-ins with lockers on each. I'll clip one daisy to one ladder and the third ladder floats as necessary. This way, when I'm at an anchor I can just reach up with a daisy and viola, I'm secure. Umm, this is not even close to being true. Do not use any daisy as your secure attachment to a wall. You will help make the statistics eventually. Daisys, according to every manufacturer, are not for anchoring you to the wall, and I wish people would stop posting this as advice.
Maybe I should clarify, moving fast, you clip into the anchor with your daisy, yell secure (because you are safely off belay) and either build your more permanent anchor, pull up the rope for short fixing, fix the rope, or whatever it is that you plan on doing to continue climbing while your belayer is preparing on his end. This is only what I do, your mileage may vary.
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mrtristan
Jan 29, 2010, 5:09 PM
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If you're going to get ovals (and definitely suggest getting some), consider the Petzl Owall biner. It's a keylock oval biner. I think it's on the heavier side so I wouldn't want a whole rack of them, but I think these things are great.
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moof
Jan 29, 2010, 9:24 PM
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My rack has ended up with a variety, and for good reason:
1. Keylock biners are far preferable as your lead biner (whats on the end of your daisy for clipping into every piece). Also having a keylock on the bolt end of the biner can be really nice on overhanging/traversing routes as they are easier to unclip from bolt hangers just using body english to unweight. The weight is often not worth the convenience on less steep routes.
2. Tiny biners suck with gloves on. Smallish wiregates like nuetrino/superfly sized and larger work good enough with fingerless wall gloves, but beware when you go <30g. I'm intrigued by the hooded wiregates, but don't have any, they may be the best yet for aid?
3. Pear lockers for the belay are worth the weight. A dozen lockers of decent size is not overkill. Belays get busy quick, and big fat pear biners (attache sized or bigger) allow for a lot of stuff to get clipped in, often temporarily, and prevent the chaos of strings of biners clipped into biners into biners...
4. Avoid the plastic collar Petzl locking biners. They foul with grime easily and can then be impossible to lock.
5. If you rack lots to a biner (like nuts, multiple cams, etc) then the BD wiregate ovals are my favorite (trad or aid). I rack 3-4 aliens, 8-10 nuts, and so on using them. I do not like them on my draws, and prefer something lighter on my individual larger cams.
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