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Partner brent_e


Jan 18, 2010, 3:43 PM
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another year, another ice tool
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This year they are one piece carbon with foam core. I don't have the weight and I haven't swung them yet as I've just finished them.
I would like to do some destructive testing on these and see how/where they are failing, which should come sometime later.


The New One
also here:
http://www.pbase.com/...rter/image/121211429


tools from the last few years in order (the handles from the Trango's were the first ones).
Also here:
http://www.pbase.com/...rter/image/121211426




what do you think?

edit: weight and such are below


(This post was edited by brent_e on Jan 21, 2010, 2:31 PM)


Partner angry


Jan 18, 2010, 3:58 PM
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moose_droppings


Jan 18, 2010, 4:09 PM
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Re: [brent_e] another year, another ice tool [In reply to]
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Sure looks sweet and I'll bet their light.

Does there come a point when the tool is to light and you have to swing extra hard to stick it? Or is it a win win?

Just asking, thanks.


Partner brent_e


Jan 18, 2010, 5:50 PM
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Re: [angry] another year, another ice tool [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
What do I think? I think if I hadn't moved to Bermuda I'd give you oral happy fun time to be the one to do the destructive testing.

Am I ever going to have the worlds coolest coffee cup?

thanks, Angry,
Oral happy fun time is pretty much my favorite time. Cool


I'll send you a message about the cup.


(This post was edited by brent_e on Jan 18, 2010, 6:11 PM)


Partner brent_e


Jan 18, 2010, 6:06 PM
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moose_droppings wrote:
Sure looks sweet and I'll bet their light.

Does there come a point when the tool is to light and you have to swing extra hard to stick it? Or is it a win win?

Just asking, thanks.

as mentioned I have yet to weight them OR (sadly) swing them to date. tomorrow I'll do both and hopefully post.

They don't feel rediculously light(I will confirm later).
I believe the_climber in another thread was mentioning how easily his takoons stuck b/c of the head weight. we'll see how these stick. You can always add weight to the head of a tool if you want it. You cannot take weight away, however.


Thanks for the compliment! Smile

Brent


wanderlustmd


Jan 18, 2010, 8:13 PM
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brent_e wrote:
angry wrote:
What do I think? I think if I hadn't moved to Bermuda I'd give you oral happy fun time to be the one to do the destructive testing.

Am I ever going to have the worlds coolest coffee cup?

thanks, Angry,
Oral happy fun time is pretty much my favorite time. Cool


I'll send you a message about the cup.
Oral happy fun time might be a pretty good name for the tool. I can see the catalog entry now....Cool

Now Available! In Stock
Black Diamond Viper
Black Diamond Cobra
Black Diamond Fusion
Black Diamond Reactor
T3h_Brent Oral Happy Fun Time
Petzl Nomic
DMM Fly
Petzl-Charlet Quark


Edvin


Jan 19, 2010, 3:19 AM
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Nice! Looks really great!

How did you attach the head to the shaft? Did you use something, like alumnium, there to beef it up?


the_climber


Jan 19, 2010, 8:46 AM
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brent_e wrote:
I believe the_climber in another thread was mentioning how easily his takoons stuck b/c of the head weight. we'll see how these stick. You can always add weight to the head of a tool if you want it. You cannot take weight away, however.

It come down to the proportion of head weight, and the pick angle. That snap of the wrist is the acceleration which leads to the impact force. My DMM Fly's are light tools with a heavy head proportionally and stick about as good as my Taak's... which are heavier but have a similar head weight proportionally (not to mention a shit load more clearance).

The new tools look sweet. I'll expect them in the mail for product testing purposes next week.


the_climber


Jan 19, 2010, 8:47 AM
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brent_e wrote:
angry wrote:
What do I think? I think if I hadn't moved to Bermuda I'd give you oral happy fun time to be the one to do the destructive testing.

Am I ever going to have the worlds coolest coffee cup?

thanks, Angry,
Oral happy fun time is pretty much my favorite time. Cool


I'll send you a message about the cup.

two angry's one cup?


sungam


Jan 20, 2010, 1:14 PM
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Note to self... Getz yore bootz to Brent to kompleet the fruitination ASAP!


sungam


Jan 20, 2010, 1:15 PM
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Sweet tool, btw. One question, though - are you going to coat the handle? Carbon fibre tends to get a bit slippy when snowy/icey. More so then other materials.


adatesman


Jan 20, 2010, 2:46 PM
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Partner brent_e


Jan 20, 2010, 6:51 PM
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magnus,
I've got some ideas for them and i figure they will work! But it will help to get some boots here to start with. thanks for the compliment.

thanks, Adatesman! and thanks Brenden!


the tools swing well. I like the angle and the handle seems to work really nicely, but it will be snug with bigger mits on. I only climbed 40 or so feet of low angle stuff and some bouldering on vertical stuff. The ice was pretty soft and they placed well but I imagine they would be a bit more difficult to place in boiler plate ice due to how light they are. they did swing nicely from both handles, though.

Speaking of weight it came in at 448 grams, which is just a hair under 1lb. They need some tool dip/rubber splicing tape for the grip, which will add a tiny bit more weight. Still, they are a bit too light for my liking and i'm going to beef them up a bit. When I get a couple more going i'll destroy some and see what the numbers are like. I have a feeling that they will break where the pick meets the shaft but we'll see.

still a few more things to do with the molds before I can make them really easily. I had to confirm that I liked the handle before I went ahead with this, though. It was nice to compare them to the previous ones I've made. They are a definite improvement in shape and swing and once I get the weight "right" (for me!) I think they'll be pretty good!


(This post was edited by brent_e on Jan 20, 2010, 7:31 PM)


brokesomeribs


Jan 21, 2010, 12:37 AM
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brent_e wrote:
This year they are one piece carbon with foam core.
http://www.pbase.com/...rter/image/121211429
[image]http://ic2.pbase.com/g3/07/44607/2/121211429.eXEWpaeQ.jpg[/image]

tools from the last few years in order (the handles from the Trango's were the first ones).
Also here:
http://www.pbase.com/...rter/image/121211426

[image]http://k41.pbase.com/g3/07/44607/2/121211426.Je352vmR.jpg[/image]


what do you think?

I think wow. Goddamn you have a beautiful tool.

Yeah, I said it.


Partner angry


Jan 21, 2010, 5:43 AM
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Re: [adatesman] another year, another ice tool [In reply to]
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adatesman wrote:
angry wrote:
What do I think? I think if I hadn't moved to Bermuda I'd give you oral happy fun time...

brent_e wrote:
Oral happy fun time is pretty much my favorite time. Cool

Someone please make a sig out of one or both of these. I would, but mine's busy at the moment. Angelic

BTW, excellent work!

There were other gems to had from this thread.


Partner brent_e


Jan 21, 2010, 2:30 PM
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brokesomeribs wrote:
brent_e wrote:
This year they are one piece carbon with foam core.
http://www.pbase.com/...rter/image/121211429
[image]http://ic2.pbase.com/g3/07/44607/2/121211429.eXEWpaeQ.jpg[/image]

tools from the last few years in order (the handles from the Trango's were the first ones).
Also here:
http://www.pbase.com/...rter/image/121211426

[image]http://k41.pbase.com/g3/07/44607/2/121211426.Je352vmR.jpg[/image]


what do you think?

I think wow. Goddamn you have a beautiful tool.

Yeah, I said it.

BlushBlushBlush

wouldn't be the first time that's been said to me.


lukebrown607


Jan 21, 2010, 8:38 PM
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Re: [brent_e] another year, another ice tool [In reply to]
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Go to your local college, that has an engineering program, and see if you can get someone to do a FEA (Finite Element Analysis) study on your tool. It will give you a good idea of potential areas of failure for a complex shape like that.


rschap


Jan 21, 2010, 10:00 PM
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Very nice. If you need some heavier heads made let me know, maybe I can shoot something out on the water jet for you.


EvilMonkey


Jan 22, 2010, 5:00 PM
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nice looking tools. in addition to wrapping your handles, u might also think about wrapping some electrical splicing tape around the top of the shaft, near the head. that'll keep u from beating the crap outta the carbon fiber. also, have you seen the heads that grivel is putting on the quantum monsters? they'd look sick on ur tools and appear to be compatable.


Partner brent_e


Jan 23, 2010, 3:41 PM
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lukebrown607 wrote:
Go to your local college, that has an engineering program, and see if you can get someone to do a FEA (Finite Element Analysis) study on your tool. It will give you a good idea of potential areas of failure for a complex shape like that.


thanks for the advice. A friend of mine actually does that stuff. FEA is great for steel but it's extremely complicated with composites as the layers react in odd ways and fiber oritentation as well as part shape makes a large difference. it will be more powerful for me to physically test the tools.


Partner brent_e


Jan 23, 2010, 3:48 PM
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rschap wrote:
Very nice. If you need some heavier heads made let me know, maybe I can shoot something out on the water jet for you.

thanks! I might take you up on some waterjet parts.

EvilMonkey wrote:
nice looking tools. in addition to wrapping your handles, u might also think about wrapping some electrical splicing tape around the top of the shaft, near the head. that'll keep u from beating the crap outta the carbon fiber. also, have you seen the heads that grivel is putting on the quantum monsters? they'd look sick on ur tools and appear to be compatable.

thanks Monkey,
I've got rubber splicing tape but I'm going to use plastidip on them. You're right about having something close to the head, though. I don't know if I'd be able to get a hold of the grivel bashguard but I will likely use something! thanks for that. I've kept them bare to show off the carbon.



small update. I've climbed some vertical stuff and a few mixed moves with them and they're very comfortable. hopefully in a couple weeks i'll have a few more going and can smash a couple!


climbist


Jan 27, 2010, 12:45 PM
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Nice tool! Inspiration to make my own!


Partner brent_e


Jan 27, 2010, 5:02 PM
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climbist wrote:
Nice tool! Inspiration to make my own!

go for it!

if you want to pick my brain I can give you some info on what I've done to make these and others.


rschap


Jan 28, 2010, 8:56 AM
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I was wondering if you had any sort of write up on your process. I tried looking for it on your link but couldn’t find one. I was wondering if you’re vacuum bagging, and how you’re baking your tools.


(This post was edited by rschap on Jan 28, 2010, 8:56 AM)


Partner brent_e


Jan 30, 2010, 10:58 AM
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rschap wrote:
I was wondering if you had any sort of write up on your process. I tried looking for it on your link but couldn’t find one. I was wondering if you’re vacuum bagging, and how you’re baking your tools.

it's hard to find a good tutorial online for making this stuff. I'll do my best to explain the process but bear with me as it may be long. it's also a bit out of whack. so if you intend on following these steps read through this a couple times and place some of my notes that are a bit out of order back in order. they will be obvious but i'm too lazy to edit them so they are more coherent. good luck with that one!

1) after you have an idea of what you want your final product to look like you have to make a plug. You can do this out of various materials and you can do so by hand or with a CNC if you have access to that and have the CAD drawings. What you have to consider here is where your mold is going to part/split as it will need to be in 2 pieces. The axis where the plug is mirrored is the best parting line.
I made my plug by hand out of MDF as it was available and easy to work with. You can use foam or balsa, or if you're using a CNC, aluminum or steel, but what's best is renboard. Renboard is prohibitively expensive ($200/sq ft) but was designed for this application so performs amazingly. drawbacks to balsa and other woods is that they are not consistent which can make them hard to sand.

More on what I did: when the MDF plug is shaped as desired it needs to be finished with a non-porours product which allows it to release when making the actual molds. I soaked the MDF in epoxy, let that dry, resanded that (the epoxy makes the MDF pucker), then painted it. You'll need to sand the paint up to 600 grit wet to get a good mold finish OR you'll be sanding your mold which is much more work.


2) Mold setup. You need to make a flange on your plug so you have a flange on your mold. this is important later for clamping the final part together. 4 inches is sufficient. If you're using CAD and a CNC split your part in half along the middle and machine both sides seperately. If you're doin this by hand you'll have to be creative. Cardboard or aluminum or 1/8" MDF cut to accept the plug inside will work. You have to have little or NO gap and if there is a gap between the plug fill it with hot glue or silicone. If you're using MDF or carboard to make up this flange you have to finish it so you can put mold release on it. in either case packing tape makes a good surface and for the MDF you can paint, sand, and wax.

3) Wax.
I wax my plug 2X as much as I think it's neccessary. This is just insurance. It's so much work to make the plug and if it sticks in the mold you're back at the start. I use TR15 paste wax as it's compatible with PVA (poly vinyl alcohol) which give more insurance for a good release. 10 coats of wax is definitely overkill and that's about what I do. This is probably the most important step in making the mold so wax it like it's a Ferrari. Your last coat before you actually lay up your mold you don't have to buff off (insurance!). A quick light wipe with PVA will add more insurance but, i've heard, a spray with hairspray does the same thing (I've never tried it and won't). Once you've put your final coat of wax on, DON'T touch the plug with your bare hands. Just leave it alone until you do the layup.

4) Making the first side of your mold.
Now you can layup 1/2 the mold. the best way to do this is to buy gelcoat (specific for mold making) and put 2 coats of this over your plug and flange. Wait for this to tack up a bit then lay very light fiberglass over this (2 oz cloth). Over this is your bulking material that makes up the strong part of your mold. You can use vacuum here to compress all the layers but it's not necessary. Your mold needs to be really strong so don't skimp on layers. At least an 1/8 inch is required for stiffness.
Without gelcoat you have to be careful. Where the plug meets the flange the fabric has a tendency to bridge and you get a gap that has to be fixed later. to avoid this you can use cabasil or another filler with your resin to simulate gelcoat.
With or without gelcoat you shouldn't let the first 4 or 5 layers that you lay on top of your plug bridge the plug and flange. Cut the fabric so the edges meet at this interface and you'll have less of a chance of a gap.

after this dries and you pop the mold and plug/flance appart you're most of the way there. Use plastic wedges to pop these appart.

You'll probably have to do a bit of work to the mold and plug. make sure that they are still in good shape, waxed, and without chips for the next part. Sand your mold wet to 600 to 2000 grit after you've fixed any gaps/holes/etc. Bondo can work for small holes but make sure you're using "finishing putty" type bondo. it's expensive but is very fine. Epoxy and a filling agent is preferable, however.

You'll need some dowel pins in the mold to line up the other side when you make that. Drill appropriate sized holes and slide these in OR you can put them on your flange before you layup the first half of the mold. The latter is preferable. this is one of those notes you should be making!

5) Wax the new mold and plug as described above. 5+ coats everywhere on the new mold will be good. Place the plug inside the mold and wax these together. Your wetsanding should leave a little bit of space for the plug to slide in easily so you don't have to fight with it. Make sure you're waxing the dowel pins, too.

*****Now you have to consider one thing. Do you want to make some accomodation space for the lamination in your molds. What this means is that when you clamp your two molds together with the laminate between them you are gaining the thickness of your lamination in your final product. mine ended up being about 3/32" thicker because of this. If you want to retain the original dimensions of your plug you'll need to have a spacer between the first 1/2 and the second 2X the thickness of your lamination. I expect 8 or 10 layers of carbon or kevlar to be sufficiently strong (current tools are 6 or 7). 6 0z fabric is approximately 0.2mm per layer so do the math and make a spacer the right size. you can also layup 2X your lamination on the first half of the mold then cut out the center for the plug to fit within. you'll need to finish your spacer as perscribed above (600 grit wet).
This step can be accomplished quite easily with CAD and a CNC.


6) Make the other half of your mold as described in step 4 with the plug in the first half of your mold. Your dowel pins should line these up


7)
crack these appart and finish the second half of your mold. drill a few more holes for bolts to clamp your molds together when making your part. 1/4 20's are sufficient.

8) Foam Core.
I was curious about this step and wanted to try using something that I hadn't heard of anyone using. It ended up working and pretty much makes all this possible. 2 part urethane foam releases from the TR15 paste wax with excellent results. This gives you an exact inside model of your part but, without accomadation for your lamination.
What I did here is bought 6lb density foam and poured it in my molds, clamped them together, and popped my core out the next day. Trial and error is require here because too much 2 part foam and you risk damaging your mold (this stuff can push about 30psi and has blown the decks of boats out when too much has been put in for floation).

the 6lb foam, however, is REALLY dense and doesn't compress so I'm trying 2lb. You can buy this in a spray bottle from a hardware store, which i tried, with disasterous results (as in, cleaning a snotty mess of uncured foam out of my molds). hopefully the 2lb will work better.

You need to sand the foam to allow enough room for it and the laminate to fit inside your mold. this is the key. you're going to make a 1 piece part by clamping your foam, laminate, and 2 molds together.

along the parting line of the foam, you NEED TO PUT a few layers of material which will bond the 2 sides of the part together. without this your part will fail and you will most certainly die. a couple strips of carbon 2 inches wide BUT cut so the fibers are 45 degrees across the parting line will do. A spray adhesive (3M super 77 works well) can be used to glue to fibers to the foam.

9) making the part.

you'll need some resin. I use MGS slow cure infusion resin. You shouldn't use this as it has an extremely low viscosity for infusing using a resin transfer process. A laminating epoxy resin will be good. One that doesn't need a post cure for it's properties to be achieved is probably best but likely won't be as strong as a resin with a post cure required. Check into this. USE SLOW CURE RESIN. if you don't you will have a lot of resin sitting in mixing containers smoking because you haven't used it quick enough.
Suprisingly the best method for doing this is to do a wet layup. Wet lay your lamination into both sides of your molds then place your foam core inside. Place the other half of your mold on top of this, bolt it all together, and wait for it to dry!

Your part will come out with a flange that you have to trim. be careful doing this so you don't cut into your final part. pencil grinders, sanders, files are useful here and so is a good mask, long sleeves, and gloves. Carbon is incredibly bad for you when ingested.


I think i've covered most of it. I'll try and read through and edit where necessary and you can ask for clarity or more info if you please.


Brent


(This post was edited by brent_e on Jan 30, 2010, 11:09 AM)

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