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AlWille
Jan 19, 2010, 4:50 PM
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I've recently moved to SLC and have enrolled in an Avi Awareness level one class given through the university.I'm the only climber in the class and am wondering if buying a beacon,probe and shovel will be worth the expense. My objectives will be mostly spring mountaineering and peak bagging. Why don't I hear of more climbers carrying this equipment.
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marc801
Jan 19, 2010, 4:54 PM
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AlWille wrote: I've recently moved to SLC and have enrolled in an Avi Awareness level one class given through the university.I'm the only climber in the class and am wondering if buying a beacon,probe and shovel will be worth the expense. My objectives will be mostly spring mountaineering and peak bagging. Why don't I hear of more climbers carrying this equipment.
Welcome to SLC and the Wasatch.
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atg200
Jan 19, 2010, 4:56 PM
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As a mountaineer it is fairly practical to practice avalanche terrain avoidance as long as you know what you are looking for. The skiers dilemma is that avalanche slopes are typically the best ski terrain, so they generally are taking greater risks.
It never hurts to have avy gear, and you'll have more options if you do.
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AlWille
Jan 19, 2010, 5:22 PM
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Thanks, just wondering if knowledge from class and avoiding high risk days is enough. Feel like most potential partners wont have the equipment or knowledge to use it
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the_climber
Jan 19, 2010, 5:42 PM
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In the Canadian Rockies a few of us have been promoting a trend that has lead to a lot of ice climbers carrying beacon, shovel, and probe on climbs.
The basic question we ask is: "If you were skiing and exposed to the same terrain, would you have your avalanche gear on you?"
If the answer is yes, then bring it.
There is a difference between skiing and climbing. Skiing typically exposes you to more avalanche terrain in a shorter time. Climbing typically exposes you to fewer avalanche paths, but for a much greater period of time. In addition to this, many ice climbs are located in terrain traps. Avoidance is your primary defense, your avalanche gear is your last line of defense. Make calculated judgment calls, but be prepared for the conditions of the day.
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hafilax
Jan 19, 2010, 5:52 PM
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Spring mountaineering can be high avalanche season even on low rated days at least from my experience in the PNW. Once the sun starts hitting the cornices there is an element of randomness as to when they'll let go and whether or not they'll set off the slope below them. The big slides around here happen when the snow goes isothermal in the spring. It's pretty easy to predict the climax event days but it's the outliers that will get you.
It's easy enough to rent that stuff so if you'll only need it occasionally then I'd go that route. The only time I don't carry mine is in simple* terrain with low risk. If you're in challenging* or complex* terrain crossing multiple slide paths at any point then I would be prepared even on low risk days. Even with low forecasts they include a laundry list of terrain to look out for.
Remember that ice climbing and mountaineering rank pretty high on the avalanche risk spectrum once scaled to the number of participants. Everyone says that they'll play it safe and not put themselves at risk...
*Have they adopted the simple, challenging and complex terrain definitions in the states? It's a relatively new standard in Canada.
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coastal_climber
Jan 19, 2010, 6:04 PM
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I dunno. I think something is wrong if your on an ice route and you have a shovel and probe in your pack.
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AntinJ
Jan 19, 2010, 6:05 PM
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I would suggest purchasing a shovel and probe and then renting a beacon for your first season of skiing/climbing to see how often you are end up travelling in avy terrain. The local stores in the Northeast rent them for very cheap. If you find that renting is no longer cost effective, then pick one up! Not to mention the class will teach you about the different types of beacons - so I would at the very least bounce these questions off the instructor before purchasing one.
Enjoy the class. I took it last year and had a blast!
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the_climber
Jan 19, 2010, 6:10 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: I dunno. I think something is wrong if your on an ice route and you have a shovel and probe in your pack.
I have 3 friends who would be alive today if they had been carrying a shovel and probe on ice climbs. 2 of them died on days where the hazard was Rated LOW - Treeline, LOW - Above treeline, LOW - Alpine. 2 of the incidents were in "Simple" Terrain.
There's nothing wrong with carrying your Avalanche gear on an ice climb. Although on many climbs it's an unnecessary precaution, there are many routes where it is a good idea.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Jan 19, 2010, 6:14 PM)
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hafilax
Jan 19, 2010, 6:10 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: I dunno. I think something is wrong if your on an ice route and you have a shovel and probe in your pack.
Aside from pure ice routes a lot of mountaineering routes go right up snow slope couloirs and gullies which have high consequences if anything lets go.
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irregularpanda
Jan 19, 2010, 6:23 PM
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the_climber wrote: Avoidance is your primary defense, your avalanche gear is your last line of defense. Make calculated judgment calls, but be prepared for the conditions of the day.
+1.
I would add to this the simple advice that after you take a level 1 Avy course, you will realize that you don't know enough and you will need to know more. Try this one out for size, it's not the most thorough book, but for the intelligent and motivated beginner, it will give you a STRONG foundation for understanding avalanche conditions. I suggest you read the less advanced chapters before your course.
http://www.amazon.com/...remper/dp/0898868343
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shimanilami
Jan 19, 2010, 6:23 PM
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I can't say that I wear a beacon every time I go to the backcountry. Usually, as I'm putting on my gore-tex to start hiking out, I ask myself, "Should I bring the beacon?" Sometimes I think, "Yes" and other times it's "no".
I can promise you, however, that I'm always glad it's sitting in my gear bag, ready to go with fresh batteries. The fact that it's there, that I paid for it, and that I know how to use it eliminates most excuses that I might make up for not carrying it. And, like wearing a helmet, the extra feeling of security gives me the warm and fuzzies, which by itself is worth something.
I'd suggest borrowing or renting for your class. Afterwards, if you think that traveling in avalanche country is something you'll be doing more of, then go out and buy yourself a beacon. After a couple of seasons, you won't miss the $150 (?) you spent, but you'll be stoked every time you open your gear bag and it's there waiting for you.
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shimanilami
Jan 19, 2010, 8:48 PM
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If that video doesn't convince the OP to buy a beacon, nothing will.
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rschap
Jan 20, 2010, 5:31 AM
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I also carry the package when I’m in the mountains in the snow. The Rockies are well known for avalanches.
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coastal_climber
Jan 20, 2010, 6:07 AM
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the_climber wrote: coastal_climber wrote: I dunno. I think something is wrong if your on an ice route and you have a shovel and probe in your pack. I have 3 friends who would be alive today if they had been carrying a shovel and probe on ice climbs. 2 of them died on days where the hazard was Rated LOW - Treeline, LOW - Above treeline, LOW - Alpine. 2 of the incidents were in "Simple" Terrain. There's nothing wrong with carrying your Avalanche gear on an ice climb. Although on many climbs it's an unnecessary precaution, there are many routes where it is a good idea.
Yeah, I was talking about on the route itself. Obviously carrying en route to climb is extremely important.
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the_climber
Jan 20, 2010, 7:30 AM
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coastal_climber wrote: the_climber wrote: coastal_climber wrote: I dunno. I think something is wrong if your on an ice route and you have a shovel and probe in your pack. I have 3 friends who would be alive today if they had been carrying a shovel and probe on ice climbs. 2 of them died on days where the hazard was Rated LOW - Treeline, LOW - Above treeline, LOW - Alpine. 2 of the incidents were in "Simple" Terrain. There's nothing wrong with carrying your Avalanche gear on an ice climb. Although on many climbs it's an unnecessary precaution, there are many routes where it is a good idea. Yeah, I was talking about on the route itself. Obviously carrying en route to climb is extremely important.
En route only? Tony died mid route, Colin was avalanche at the top of the route, and I'm not talking about the other friend, too close to home after that video.
We were avalanched mid route once too. Thankfully we found Mike despite not having avi gear... partial burial. I've been through having a friend there... then gone...
asking our other friend who was there: "Mike?????" and hearing "He's gone" as the response... knowing we wouldn't find him. Thankfully we did find him.
Add to that having to call his parents to tell them they NEED to go to the hospital and their son needs emergency surgery to have any chance of saving his leg....
NEVER AGAIN
Avi gear has it's place on more climbs than most think.
(This post was edited by the_climber on Jan 20, 2010, 7:33 AM)
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qwert
Jan 20, 2010, 10:07 AM
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If there is any chances of avalanches (snow + terrain that is steeper than absolutely flat) carry a beacon + shovel + probe + knowledge how to use it.
First and foremost learn how to avoid having to use them, and stick to that.
It really is not fun at all to stand at an avalanche and realize there is no way to find your friend ...
and its even worse when you know that you should have been able to avoid this, both triggering the avalanche, and not bringing stuff.
Luckily it worked out good, but would have liked to avoid it anyways, since normally stuff like that does not end good.
And someone mentioned 150$ for a beacon. I dont know the US prices, but i would guess that is unfortunately not enough. Do not safe money on the beacon! not matter if you buy it, or rent it. Do not get the crappy old, analog 1 antenna devices. get at least a digital 2 antenna device like the barryvox, or better a 3 antenna one, like the barryvox pulse, or the new pieps. Unless you are not really really keen on spending as much time as you can for training, the ease of use and the added precision of these devices can be a real life saver!
qwert
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tomtom
Jan 20, 2010, 2:45 PM
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And just as a reminder of the obvious: carrying a beacon, probe, and shovel plus skills won't necessarily save you or your partner in an avalanche. Many avy victims are dead when the snow stops due to trauma. These tools aren't magic force fields. they only deal with the results after you've screwed up.
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scotty1974
Jan 20, 2010, 10:05 PM
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Being from the Pacwest give you different snow pack than here in deadly CO, but think about Guy Lacelle, Micah Dash, Jonny Copp. All climbers, all dead from avalanches. And that was just this past year.
We have quite a few climbs here in CO that are in dangerous avy areas (officer's gulch, black lake)while still being waterfall ice and have had climbers killed while on them. If you check avalanche org, the deaths go snowmobilers, skiiers, then climbers...so although not totally needed many cases call for the gear.
Nothing wrong with wanting to live a bit longer...
(This post was edited by scotty1974 on Jan 20, 2010, 10:21 PM)
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AntinJ
Jan 20, 2010, 10:50 PM
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In reply to: And just as a reminder of the obvious: carrying a beacon, probe, and shovel plus skills won't necessarily save you or your partner in an avalanche. Many avy victims are dead when the snow stops due to trauma. These tools aren't magic force fields. they only deal with the results after you've screwed up.
+1
I remember learning this as well. I think the number killed by BFT is close to 1/3. It's not all fluffy stuff!
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altelis
Jan 21, 2010, 4:35 AM
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coastal_climber wrote: the_climber wrote: coastal_climber wrote: I dunno. I think something is wrong if your on an ice route and you have a shovel and probe in your pack. I have 3 friends who would be alive today if they had been carrying a shovel and probe on ice climbs. 2 of them died on days where the hazard was Rated LOW - Treeline, LOW - Above treeline, LOW - Alpine. 2 of the incidents were in "Simple" Terrain. There's nothing wrong with carrying your Avalanche gear on an ice climb. Although on many climbs it's an unnecessary precaution, there are many routes where it is a good idea. Yeah, I was talking about on the route itself. Obviously carrying en route to climb is extremely important.
I don't understand. A beacon won't get in the way while climbing, and neither will a small shovel. Many probes these days can be stashed in a shovel handle. Why would you lug that stuff then just randomly toss it for part of the climb. If you are carrying it you may as well keep carrying it...
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marc801
Jan 21, 2010, 5:36 AM
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qwert wrote: And someone mentioned 150$ for a beacon. I dont know the US prices, but i would guess that is unfortunately not enough
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altelis
Jan 22, 2010, 3:45 AM
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marc801 wrote: qwert wrote: And someone mentioned 150$ for a beacon. I dont know the US prices, but i would guess that is unfortunately not enough Typically the lowest sale prices I've seen recently have been around $240. It's best to budget for $325 - if you find one cheaper, use the savings for a good shovel (not one of those plastic toys) and probe. Occasionally there are deals on a package - the ones I remember are from Mountain Gear (mgear.com).
i really like my plastic life link shovel. the shovel blade is guaranteed for life...i've yet to hear of one breaking or not being strong enough....
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