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climbingaz
Jan 20, 2010, 8:39 PM
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I know I'm probably gonna get slammed for even asking this, but:
Should you always extend stopper placements with a quickdraw or sling?
It doesn't appear as if everyone does it while aid climbing...why would free climbing be any different?
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jeepnphreak
Jan 20, 2010, 8:42 PM
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climbingaz wrote: I know I'm probably gonna get slammed for even asking this, but: Should you always extend stopper placements with a quickdraw or sling? It doesn't appear as if everyone does it while aid climbing...why would free climbing be any different?
I think that its a really good idea to extend a stopper with a sling/draw while free climbing. reason being that you want to be able to climb and have the rope movement impact you gear placemenets as little as possible. The longer the sling the more the rope will have to whip around to yank your stopper about.
in aid you attaching your self to the stopper/other gear and standing on you gear so the rope movement is quite a bit less than if you where to climb several feet above you last placemnet.
that lst thing you want to do is climb 5/6+ feet above your last placemnt and have it pull out then you fall taking a whipper way more that nessary or zippering you gear as you fall.
(This post was edited by jeepnphreak on Jan 20, 2010, 8:47 PM)
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climbingaz
Jan 20, 2010, 8:59 PM
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Maybe my second-guessing is because I'm just now getting interested in aid climbing.
In the past I've always extended my nut placement while free climbing, but I'm getting the impression that this is not necessary while aid climbing. Is that a fair assumption?
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Adk
Jan 20, 2010, 9:01 PM
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http://www.rockclimbing.com/...g=48%20draws;#863867
This might help above but there are great reasons to have longer slings attached to protection. When you trad climb and place pro you then add a trad draw or a dbl draw or even a 48" draw. When you add them you should be thinking about where you are going next above you and where that rope will be going. Draws not only help to keep your rope from pulling gear but they help reduce rope drag. They do this if used correctly by creating a straighter line in your rope in realtion to your belayer below.
There will be much less rope drag for that climber using the pink rope than there will be with the blue rope. The blue rope has much more acute angles to be pulling that rope through. The pink rope will be much less work for the leader to pull when they need to clip. This not only works in overhanging situations but it does on routes that travel in zig-zag type patterns
(This post was edited by Adk on Jan 21, 2010, 2:22 PM)
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Gmburns2000
Jan 20, 2010, 9:27 PM
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climbingaz wrote: I know I'm probably gonna get slammed for even asking this, but: Should you always extend stopper placements with a quickdraw or sling?
OK, my turn to get slammed but, without some sort of draw, how would you clip the rope to the nut otherwise, would you only use a single biner? I ask because I don't think I've ever done this except at an anchor where I'd use a locker instead. The idea of simply using a biner sounds bizarre to me (though I wouldn't rule it out if that's all I had).
I've always clipped a draw of some length to my pieces for the reasons noted above: rope drag + helps to keep the piece set.
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boymeetsrock
Jan 20, 2010, 9:45 PM
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The two primary reasons for extending your trad placements with draws are (for free climbing):
1) To keep the gear from being jostled out of place by the rope.
2) To reduce rope drag.
BITD I believe it was fairly common for climbers to connect the rope to gear with one 'biner, or maybe two 'biners in a chain. However that does not seem to be commonly acceptable in free climbing today.
Note that #1 is less of a concern in aid climbing as the gear is typically "set" under body weight, and the rope is generally moving slower offering less of a chance for the gear to be jostled.
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camhead
Jan 20, 2010, 10:47 PM
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I have read magazine articles in the past that stated that you should not use stiff, short sport quickdraws on stoppers, since the stiff runners made it easier for the rope to push the stopper out of place. This makes sense, although I personally have never seen this happen.
If you are concerned about this problem (rather than rope drag issues on wandering routes, which are another story), it matters less what length of runner you are using, and more the stiffness. I usually use a triple looped shoulder length sling, which is very loose, but about the same length as a quickdraw.
A word in response to some people who have implied that "longer is better" with runners: this often not the case. There was a recent accident on a corner crack at the RRG where the victim clipped his first piece with the three foot runner, got just barely above it, fell, and decked. You can take a fall looking at a stopper that is runnered this way, and you will fall six feet. And this was on a climb that does NOT wander; any sort of runner was barely necessary. Just something to think about.
(This post was edited by camhead on Jan 20, 2010, 10:49 PM)
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cracklover
Jan 20, 2010, 11:45 PM
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climbingaz wrote: I know I'm probably gonna get slammed for even asking this, but: Should you always extend stopper placements with a quickdraw or sling?
No, but usually.
In reply to: It doesn't appear as if everyone does it while aid climbing...why would free climbing be any different?
Aid and free are basically the same in this respect, unless you're aid soloing. In that case, there is no rope drag, so slinging gear long, while it may still be relevant to prevent gear from zippering in the case of a fall, is irrelevant in the case of rope drag.
GO
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chossmonkey
Jan 21, 2010, 1:00 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: The idea of simply using a biner sounds bizarre to me.
That is cause you are an inexperienced n00b who doesn't like to try hard.
Single biner on a nut can make a difference when you are close to the ground or have something to try and not hit.
Works in a pinch when you run out of draws and need to conserve biners.
Works good on straight long pitches like at Devils Tower.
It isn't something you would normally do every day so most people aren't familiar with it.
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tradrenn
Jan 21, 2010, 1:16 AM
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chossmonkey wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: The idea of simply using a biner sounds bizarre to me. That is cause you are an inexperienced n00b who doesn't like to try hard. Single biner on a nut can make a difference when you are close to the ground or have something to try and not hit. Works in a pinch when you run out of draws and need to conserve biners. Works good on straight long pitches like at Devils Tower. It isn't something you would normally do every day so most people aren't familiar with it.
I remember you teaching me that, a few years back in Quebec. An excellent trick to know.
V.
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chossmonkey
Jan 21, 2010, 11:26 AM
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tradrenn wrote: chossmonkey wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: The idea of simply using a biner sounds bizarre to me. That is cause you are an inexperienced n00b who doesn't like to try hard. Single biner on a nut can make a difference when you are close to the ground or have something to try and not hit. Works in a pinch when you run out of draws and need to conserve biners. Works good on straight long pitches like at Devils Tower. It isn't something you would normally do every day so most people aren't familiar with it. I remember you teaching me that, a few years back in Quebec. An excellent trick to know. V.
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healyje
Jan 21, 2010, 11:53 AM
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This is a cross-post from a previous thread called:bad trad advice?
-------------------------------------------------------
Trad is about the mindful construction of whole rope systems one piece at a time. By 'whole rope systems', I mean the entire enchilada - your belayer's position relative to your first piece, your line of ascent and overall rope path, and every placement and its relationship to the rope path. Every component contributes to the performance (or lack thereof) of the overall lead rope system.
The idea is to construct a robust rope system that eliminates cascading failures from either the bottom up or the top down. The former is usually caused by the combination of bad choice of belayer position and a non-multidirectional first piece; the latter from poor quality placements. Never underestimate the importance of your belayer's position relative to the wall, the intended line, and to the first piece - it is critical and foundational element of the overall system - don't just focus on the first piece; instead, consider your belayer's position, stance, and the first piece all together as a single, functional, first component in the system from which you will be building off of.
Slinging is a craft and should not be taken lightly in the context of constructing rope systems for leading. Given most folks start leading sport, understanding the importance of this craft has been waning for some time. Ditto the art of knowing when, why, and how to place effective opposition pieces (at any placement where the rope system makes a significant change of direction, to either side or in/outward, and a single piece can't constrain the rope under load without pulling - passive or cam). In general, I don't recommend quickdraws of any variety for trad climbing and if used should be of a thin, longer and highly flexible variety; but understand they tend to limit your options.
Overall, constructing a performant rope system while leading is a matter of considering both the construction, quality, and utility of individual placements and evaluating their contributing effect on the system as a whole. As such - and as shoo said - it isn't about rules and absolutes, it's about situational awareness and judgment and the application of experience, knowledge and intuition. It's a practiced art that relies on studied craftmanship.
Or, to quote Devils Lake old schoolers: "Place well thy protection, lest the ground rise up and smite thee"
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j_ung
Jan 21, 2010, 2:13 PM
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It's not the norm (because of the reasons healyje laid out above), but like chossy said, it can be a useful trick in the bag. I know a route at Ship Rock in NC that has a fantastic and multi-directional stopper placement right at the first crux, which is around 10 feet off the ground. I don't runner that one. If you pick the right size, it's not going anywhere.
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billl7
Jan 21, 2010, 2:19 PM
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I agree with one comment which could be outside the context of the other thread (didn't check). Regards this ...
healyje wrote: The idea is to construct a robust rope system that eliminates cascading failures from either the bottom up or the top down.
Cascade failures can also start from the middle and continue up or down the line. The starting point is of course where the rope makes a significant change in direction (i.e., an inflection point).
And even without an actual "cascade" of failures, the single-piece failure at an inflection point can by itself introduce enough slack to result in decking. There was an example on RC.com years ago where this happened while someone was being lowered off and they decked due to one middle piece coming out (a tricam in that case).
Regarding slinging nuts - most of the time I do but I agree it is situational.
Bill L
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angry
Jan 21, 2010, 2:20 PM
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When did climbers stop thinking and start following "always" and "never" rules?
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Gmburns2000
Jan 21, 2010, 2:31 PM
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chossmonkey wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: The idea of simply using a biner sounds bizarre to me. That is cause you are an inexperienced n00b who doesn't like to try hard. Single biner on a nut can make a difference when you are close to the ground or have something to try and not hit. Works in a pinch when you run out of draws and need to conserve biners. Works good on straight long pitches like at Devils Tower. It isn't something you would normally do every day so most people aren't familiar with it.
Yeah, I know about keeping falls short and on straight pitches; I've done this in both scenarios (though I don't rack spare non-locking biners for this purpose, so even for straight lines I just clip the draw). I'm more likely to not use a draw on a cam than I am on a nut, though.
I've rarely found an instance where I would shorten a fall by using just a biner on a nut, though, except for just off the deck (and then I'd rather use a cam). Even if I can set the nut well, I'd rather use a cam to shorten the fall because of the rope jostling the nut too much (potentially working it loose).
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billl7
Jan 21, 2010, 2:39 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: I've rarely found an instance where I would shorten a fall by using just a biner on a nut, though, except for just off the deck (and then I'd rather use a cam). Even if I can set the nut well, I'd rather use a cam to shorten the fall because of the rope jostling the nut too much (potentially working it loose).
Bill L
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marc801
Jan 21, 2010, 2:48 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: I've rarely found an instance where I would shorten a fall by using just a biner on a nut, though, except for just off the deck (and then I'd rather use a cam). Even if I can set the nut well, I'd rather use a cam to shorten the fall because of the rope jostling the nut too much (potentially working it loose).
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Gmburns2000
Jan 21, 2010, 2:58 PM
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marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I've rarely found an instance where I would shorten a fall by using just a biner on a nut, though, except for just off the deck (and then I'd rather use a cam). Even if I can set the nut well, I'd rather use a cam to shorten the fall because of the rope jostling the nut too much (potentially working it loose). Crux move on Snooky's Return in the Gunks: it takes a stopper - a cam won't fit. I've never put more than a pair of biners on that nut (or on the lost arrow piton that used to be in that slot waaaay bitd).
Yeah, Snooky's is a good example. I've actually used a really short draw on that instead of just a biner because I know I can get another piece in a couple of feet higher (and I find it easier to clip and go with a draw than with a single biner).
I love that climb.
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marc801
Jan 21, 2010, 3:21 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I've rarely found an instance where I would shorten a fall by using just a biner on a nut, though, except for just off the deck (and then I'd rather use a cam). Even if I can set the nut well, I'd rather use a cam to shorten the fall because of the rope jostling the nut too much (potentially working it loose). Crux move on Snooky's Return in the Gunks: it takes a stopper - a cam won't fit. I've never put more than a pair of biners on that nut (or on the lost arrow piton that used to be in that slot waaaay bitd). Yeah, Snooky's is a good example. I've actually used a really short draw on that instead of just a biner because I know I can get another piece in a couple of feet higher (and I find it easier to clip and go with a draw than with a single biner).
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Gmburns2000
Jan 21, 2010, 3:29 PM
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marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I've rarely found an instance where I would shorten a fall by using just a biner on a nut, though, except for just off the deck (and then I'd rather use a cam). Even if I can set the nut well, I'd rather use a cam to shorten the fall because of the rope jostling the nut too much (potentially working it loose). Crux move on Snooky's Return in the Gunks: it takes a stopper - a cam won't fit. I've never put more than a pair of biners on that nut (or on the lost arrow piton that used to be in that slot waaaay bitd). Yeah, Snooky's is a good example. I've actually used a really short draw on that instead of just a biner because I know I can get another piece in a couple of feet higher (and I find it easier to clip and go with a draw than with a single biner). Not "just a biner", a double biner. It keeps the rope oriented correctly instead of against the rock. It was standard practice when pitons were the common protection.
Sorry for being dense, but you mean two biners, right?
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marc801
Jan 21, 2010, 4:08 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I've rarely found an instance where I would shorten a fall by using just a biner on a nut, though, except for just off the deck (and then I'd rather use a cam). Even if I can set the nut well, I'd rather use a cam to shorten the fall because of the rope jostling the nut too much (potentially working it loose). Crux move on Snooky's Return in the Gunks: it takes a stopper - a cam won't fit. I've never put more than a pair of biners on that nut (or on the lost arrow piton that used to be in that slot waaaay bitd). Yeah, Snooky's is a good example. I've actually used a really short draw on that instead of just a biner because I know I can get another piece in a couple of feet higher (and I find it easier to clip and go with a draw than with a single biner). Not "just a biner", a double biner. It keeps the rope oriented correctly instead of against the rock. It was standard practice when pitons were the common protection. Sorry for being dense, but you mean two biners, right?
Yes. Two biners, end to end; like a quick draw without the nylon part.
Did you take an extra noob pill today?
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camhead
Jan 21, 2010, 4:50 PM
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marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I've rarely found an instance where I would shorten a fall by using just a biner on a nut, though, except for just off the deck (and then I'd rather use a cam). Even if I can set the nut well, I'd rather use a cam to shorten the fall because of the rope jostling the nut too much (potentially working it loose). Crux move on Snooky's Return in the Gunks: it takes a stopper - a cam won't fit. I've never put more than a pair of biners on that nut (or on the lost arrow piton that used to be in that slot waaaay bitd). Yeah, Snooky's is a good example. I've actually used a really short draw on that instead of just a biner because I know I can get another piece in a couple of feet higher (and I find it easier to clip and go with a draw than with a single biner). Not "just a biner", a double biner. It keeps the rope oriented correctly instead of against the rock. It was standard practice when pitons were the common protection. Sorry for being dense, but you mean two biners, right? Groan. Yes. Two biners, end to end; like a quick draw without the nylon part. Did you take an extra noob pill today?
METAL ON METTLE U GONE DIE N0OB!1
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Gmburns2000
Jan 21, 2010, 4:50 PM
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marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: I've rarely found an instance where I would shorten a fall by using just a biner on a nut, though, except for just off the deck (and then I'd rather use a cam). Even if I can set the nut well, I'd rather use a cam to shorten the fall because of the rope jostling the nut too much (potentially working it loose). Crux move on Snooky's Return in the Gunks: it takes a stopper - a cam won't fit. I've never put more than a pair of biners on that nut (or on the lost arrow piton that used to be in that slot waaaay bitd). Yeah, Snooky's is a good example. I've actually used a really short draw on that instead of just a biner because I know I can get another piece in a couple of feet higher (and I find it easier to clip and go with a draw than with a single biner). Not "just a biner", a double biner. It keeps the rope oriented correctly instead of against the rock. It was standard practice when pitons were the common protection. Sorry for being dense, but you mean two biners, right? Groan. Yes. Two biners, end to end; like a quick draw without the nylon part. Did you take an extra noob pill today?
No, your description of using two biners on a piton brought back a bad memory of using two non-locking biners on one piton as one of my legs in an anchor. It was hard as hell to get both biners in there, so much so that I was worried about them being too stiff and went back to using only one biner (well, that and I was annoyed at it being a pain in the ass so I just gave up).
I thought about slinging the piton and clipping the biners to the draw, but it had sharp bumps in places and, for other reasons, it would have meant not using my last remaining sling for that when I wanted to use it elsewhere instead.
So, thinking that, when you said "double biner... ...piton..." I wondered if there was some old-school version of this out there:
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marc801
Jan 21, 2010, 6:52 PM
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camhead wrote: marc801 wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: Sorry for being dense, but you mean two biners, right? Groan. Yes. Two biners, end to end; like a quick draw without the nylon part. Did you take an extra noob pill today? METAL ON METTLE U GONE DIE N0OB!1 
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