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Khoi
Feb 1, 2010, 8:24 AM
Post #51 of 90
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Travis_22 wrote: The Kong looks okay, it does somehow look cheap.
???
I do not see how it looks any different in quality compared to the Black Diamond ATC Guide or the Petzl Reverso 3. Perhaps it's the non-studio quality of the photos on Storrick's site?
For comparison, here's how the the Black Diamond ATC Guide looks on his site:
http://storrick.cnchost.com/...es/BelayTube676.html
and the Petzl Reverso 3:
http://storrick.cnchost.com/...es/BelayTube894.html
I can't be the only one who doesn't SEE a difference in quality when looking at these photos.
Travis_22 wrote: Biggest thing for me is I am not a big fan of metal on metal.
Like the original Petzl Reverso, Mad Rock Mad Lock, Omega Pacific SBG and SBGII, Mammut Smart, Petzl Grigri, Trango Cinch, and every other "auto-locking" belay device?
My climbing partner is the opposite. After have a keeper cord break on him, he prefers to have a metal loop. When the original Petzl Reverso first came out he happily switched over to it and has been using it ever since.
Travis_22 wrote: You could use something like a dmm belay master, but the metal there might pop that plastic spacer right out.
How does using a DMM Belay Master, or the DMM Belay Master 2, avoid the metal on metal scenario?
Travis_22 wrote: I would hate to see some of the twist action that thing could do on a gate. May not be a problem, but it does remind me on an eight.
Sorry, you've lost me.
Travis_22 wrote: Does the kong have any sort of lowering feature for belaying a second?
I don't know for sure. But from looking at the photos of the Kong Ghost, I think it would be easy to use the metal loop (where the belay biner goes - the part that usually a coated wire on other belay devices) for leverage.
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Travis_22
Feb 1, 2010, 2:59 PM
Post #52 of 90
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I didn't say it was cheap, just looked it, to me.
Well, the grigri and most all the auto locking are a little different, with its smaller slot. The revers(ino?) has a wider metal piece.
What i was talking about with the belay biner, there had been some bad things going on with the figure eight belay. Seems that someone died because the metal eye got positioned over the gate and the metal on metal (twist action I suppose) broke the twisty ring to lock the biner. Apparently, with most biners it only takes a few hundred pounds to break the gate with an inward force. This couldn't happen with a regular atc. Kinda scared me from using my 8, but I probably still will, I just need to watch it. I have noticed a few times using the figure 8 that the eye can easily be positioned over the gate.
It just seems to me that a soft connection is a much better idea. I am allowed to have my own opinion, I hope. The kong (and other models) have wider eyes, which would make it a lot safer methinks.
Yeah, I guess you could use that loop to lower someone. Just girth a sling on her.
Alright, think i'm done talking.
(This post was edited by Travis_22 on Feb 1, 2010, 3:03 PM)
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rschap
Feb 2, 2010, 12:53 AM
Post #53 of 90
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The last time I looked at Kong gear was about 8-9 years ago when I first started climbing and was building my rack. I had friends that had some of their cams, nuts, bineers, and even a funky ass belay device and all of it looked like shit kinda like Gear4Rocks does now. I ended up buying Trango Flex cams which the old school cams didn’t look as clean and professional as other cams or as they do now but after buying one and using it I didn’t care. After playing with a Kong cam I was convinced I’d never own one. I’ve never had anyone defend Kong when I said it was shit before so I never looked at their stuff since but I just went to their web site and I admit it looks a hell of a lot better than it used to. So now my complaint against the Kong Ghost is it doesn’t have a built in way to lower.
I guess Harbor Freight would be a better example than Kmart but I do shop at Harbor Freight for some things, the difference is I don’t hang my life on them.
Someone said above that I should grind the teeth off and I’ve thought about that but I think I’ll just make a device that has everything I want rather than try to modify one that exist.
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shockabuku
Feb 2, 2010, 3:08 AM
Post #54 of 90
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Registered: May 20, 2006
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Travis_22 wrote: I didn't say it was cheap, just looked it, to me. Well, the grigri and most all the auto locking are a little different, with its smaller slot. The revers(ino?) has a wider metal piece. What i was talking about with the belay biner, there had been some bad things going on with the figure eight belay. Seems that someone died because the metal eye got positioned over the gate and the metal on metal (twist action I suppose) broke the twisty ring to lock the biner. Apparently, with most biners it only takes a few hundred pounds to break the gate with an inward force. This couldn't happen with a regular atc. Kinda scared me from using my 8, but I probably still will, I just need to watch it. I have noticed a few times using the figure 8 that the eye can easily be positioned over the gate. It just seems to me that a soft connection is a much better idea. I am allowed to have my own opinion, I hope. The kong (and other models) have wider eyes, which would make it a lot safer methinks. Yeah, I guess you could use that loop to lower someone. Just girth a sling on her. Alright, think i'm done talking.
Thank goodness. I don't think I've ever read so much by someone who doesn't really know what he's talking about.
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shockabuku
Feb 2, 2010, 3:21 AM
Post #55 of 90
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Avalon420 got one for Christmas. You might ask him how well it lowers. I think the ring on the bottom is for tilting it to lower but I'm not sure.
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avalon420
Feb 2, 2010, 4:41 AM
Post #58 of 90
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rschap wrote: The last time I looked at Kong gear was about 8-9 years ago when I first started climbing and was building my rack. I had friends that had some of their cams, nuts, bineers, and even a funky ass belay device and all of it looked like shit kinda like Gear4Rocks does now. I ended up buying Trango Flex cams which the old school cams didn’t look as clean and professional as other cams or as they do now but after buying one and using it I didn’t care. After playing with a Kong cam I was convinced I’d never own one. I’ve never had anyone defend Kong when I said it was shit before so I never looked at their stuff since but I just went to their web site and I admit it looks a hell of a lot better than it used to. So now my complaint against the Kong Ghost is it doesn’t have a built in way to lower. I guess Harbor Freight would be a better example than Kmart but I do shop at Harbor Freight for some things, the difference is I don’t hang my life on them. Someone said above that I should grind the teeth off and I’ve thought about that but I think I’ll just make a device that has everything I want rather than try to modify one that exist.
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rtwilli4
Feb 2, 2010, 5:21 AM
Post #59 of 90
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I read a lot of responses and was surprised to see that no one has mentioned the weight. The Petzl Reverso is much lighter than the ATC Guide. I believe it's 105g for the ATC and 75 for the Reverso, or something like that.
Also, as a few people have mentioned, you can stick the nose of pretty much any keylock biner in the lowering hole of the Reverso... not sure it's that easy with the guide, although you could use a nut tool for either.
They are oriented differently in AB mode... 90* difference but I can't see why that would make any difference.
The middle of the ATC sticks out lower than the outer two walls, so it "rocks" on the biner when belaying two seconds. The Reverso doesn't do this and I've heard that it is easier to lower one person when belaying two seconds with the ATC but I've never actually done it so I can't be sure.
Both suck w/ fat ropes.
I have both and use the Reverso pretty much all the time .
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scotty1974
Feb 2, 2010, 7:19 PM
Post #60 of 90
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Guide...I know it's heavier and more difficult to break, but I think it feeds much smoother. The Reverso feeds lousy with even moderately thick ropes.
But again...chicken or beef.
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shockabuku
Feb 3, 2010, 1:03 PM
Post #62 of 90
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scotty1974 wrote: Guide...I know it's heavier and more difficult to break, but I think it feeds much smoother. The Reverso feeds lousy with even moderately thick ropes. But again...chicken or beef.
I think that being difficult to break your belay device is probably a good thing.
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scotty1974
Feb 3, 2010, 2:35 PM
Post #63 of 90
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I'm sure that's sarcasm (I think), but what I meant is difficult to "unbreak" in autoblock mode when a second has fallen. ie., that little hole that you take a carabiner or cord to release the tension.
(This post was edited by scotty1974 on Feb 3, 2010, 3:06 PM)
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shoo
Feb 3, 2010, 2:59 PM
Post #65 of 90
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Registered: Dec 22, 2006
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rschap wrote: scottek67 wrote: It must be nice being a machinist having access to the equipment to make your own gear! Why not try building a funky belay device with your own twist. howabout these... I've considered that. Edit: Sorry about the thread jack.
Combo rescue 8 and anchor plate? Cool!
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scotty1974
Feb 3, 2010, 3:11 PM
Post #66 of 90
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Wow...I don't know if I'm more impressed that you can look up a word, or the fact that your able to pick apart a post for my using verbage that doesn't exactly correlate with Webster's definition.
No one in the history of man has ever used a word in a fashion that differs from it's original definition. That's why dictionaries are never updated and colloquialism doesn't exist.
I would imagine there's a thread somewhere that urgently needs you to contribute nothing to it...
(This post was edited by scotty1974 on Feb 3, 2010, 3:13 PM)
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shoo
Feb 3, 2010, 3:24 PM
Post #67 of 90
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scotty1974 wrote: Wow...I don't know if I'm more impressed that you can look up a word, or the fact that your able to pick apart a post for my using verbage that doesn't exactly correlate with Webster's definition. No one in the history of man has ever used a word in a fashion that differs from it's original definition. That's why dictionaries are never updated and colloquialism doesn't exist. I would imagine there's a thread somewhere that urgently needs you to contribute nothing to it...
Yeah, that, ooooor, I'm explaining why people were previously giving you crap for it.
In any case, MY FIRST SIG! WOOHOO!!
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shoo
Feb 3, 2010, 4:15 PM
Post #69 of 90
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Meh, I'll go ahead and actually add something to this thread, since I own and have used both thoroughly (the reverso3 was a gift).
My advice is to get whichever one is cheaper. Honestly. There is very, very little difference between the two. That being said, I have a slight preference for the ATC-Guide for a couple of reasons.
1. I've had it longer. It's been loved, and it shows. I don't like shiny gear.
2. It feeds slightly more smoothly in both modes.
3. The reverso3 has this weird tendency for the brake side of the rope to flip over the side rail, rather than stay in its groove, when being used in normal mode belaying. Even more so with twisty ropes.
4. Contrary to popular belief, you can actually get quite a bit of stuff into that little brake release tab/slot, including some very small 'biner noses, cord, skinny slings, etc. And even if you couldn't, do you really need to? You just don't use it in guide mode if you expect to have to lower someone. In a few years using this device, I can only recall one time where I needed to briefly release tension on a weighted ATC-Guide in guide mode. It was exceedingly easy.
That being said, if I'm going to be using super skinny lines (sub 9.5 singles) all day long, I might whip out the reverso3. It does tend to have a little more braking power with skinny ropes. Anything above 9.5, though and it's just a little stickier in comparison to the guide, which can be annoying.
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scotty1974
Feb 3, 2010, 7:39 PM
Post #70 of 90
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Apparently I was a bit too cavalier in assuming that everyone was familiar with the technique and venacular associated with the device...or at least what I am familiar with.
Edited and submitted for approval...
"In the event of the device "braking" a second's fall, it is easier to "break" the tension created by the device" in autoblock mode".
Hopefully that adds clarity for anyone that experience confusion. No belay devices were intentionally or accidently harmed.
(This post was edited by scotty1974 on Feb 3, 2010, 7:43 PM)
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JimTitt
Feb 3, 2010, 8:17 PM
Post #71 of 90
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In reply to: That being said, if I'm going to be using super skinny lines (sub 9.5 singles) all day long, I might whip out the reverso3. It does tend to have a little more braking power with skinny ropes. Anything above 9.5, though and it's just a little stickier in comparison to the guide, which can be annoying.
Sort of interesting that, it is a perception thing I guess!
I´ve done lot of pull tests with both the XP Guide and Reverso ³.
Holding falls the ATC is the more powerful of the two for all sizes of rope by about 5% and when you get to really thick (10,5 and up ) ropes the Reverso falls away badly as the V slots are so narrow the rope can´t get in and brake properly. By then it doesn´t really matter anyway as there is plenty of power for most situations.
Abseiling the situation is reversed and the Reverso³ is more powerful unti 10mm where the V problem occurs again, in real life this is probably irrelevant.
Pull through the Reverso is the stickier on average of 8% especially over 9.5mm.
Neither is as powerful as the ATC XP.
(And after a lot of abuse you will notice the centre rib of the Reverso is too narrow and starts to become damaged by the karabiner).
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dr_feelgood
Feb 4, 2010, 2:11 PM
Post #72 of 90
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scotty1974 wrote: Wow...I don't know if I'm more impressed that you can look up a word, or the fact that your able to pick apart a post for my using verbage that doesn't exactly correlate with Webster's definition. No one in the history of man has ever used a word in a fashion that differs from it's original definition. That's why dictionaries are never updated and colloquialism doesn't exist. I would imagine there's a thread somewhere that urgently needs you to contribute nothing to it...
trying to pass off a misspelling as a revolution in the English language... interesting tactic.
A simple whoops would have sufficed.
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scotty1974
Feb 4, 2010, 2:24 PM
Post #73 of 90
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I didn't realize this was scrutinizemypostsformispellingsthensayi'msorry.com.
Next time I'll run any posts through a proofreader so I can avoid the public shame.
Can we return this thread to actually talking about climbing? I clarified my original post, I didn't ask for a lesson on spelling or the application of words, I just wanted to talk about the ATC/ Reverso.....Jeezzzz
(This post was edited by scotty1974 on Feb 4, 2010, 2:35 PM)
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shockabuku
Feb 4, 2010, 2:35 PM
Post #74 of 90
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scotty1974 wrote: I didn't realize this was scrutinizemypostsformispellingsthensayi'msorry.com. Next time I'll run any posts through a proofreader so I can avoid the public shame. Can we return this thread to actually talking about climbing? I clarified my original post, I didn't ask for a lesson on spelling or the application of words. Jeezzzz
Good grief, take the criticism and quit whining. Spelling matters when you communicate in the written form. I read your post and didn't understand your point because you used the wrong word. So I called you out on it. Deal with it.
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avalon420
Feb 4, 2010, 11:42 PM
Post #75 of 90
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kachoong wrote: shockabuku wrote: What about the Kong Ghost or Trango B-52? [image]http://www.gearexpress.biz/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/kong%20ghost.jpg[/image] Anything that looks like the Enterprise is bound to perform well! "Beam me up!"
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paw_8.JPG
