"No beginner should expect to be injured during a recreational experience on an artificial wall."

I don't know the details of the accident. It may very well be that the facility was mostly at fault. However, I can't even begin to describe how horrible, ironic and straight wrong this statement is to me. IMO, on the contrary, climbing gyms should do everything in their power to ensure people believe the exact opposite -- that being injured or killed is a very real possibility.

I wasn't able to find details of the accident. Has anyone?
However, the company did plead guilty to "failing to do everything possible to keep a customer safe".

I don't want to get banned for life, but I am not sure I agree with you, j_ung, for the following reason -- this was a school trip, and this was a 13 y/o. Everything you said makes sense if this was an 18 y/o walking in off the street. But the various "intro to climbing school trip" events make it really hard to figure out who is consenting for what, who is assuming responsibility for what, and set a different expectation of safety than a normal, individual encounter with the sport. The same is true of resort "discover scuba" classes, and many other "recreational adventure" undertakings. Presumably they were taking an abbreviated safety class, or perhaps even getting belayed by the gym's staff. In that environment, even my expectation for injry would be different than normal, nevermind that of a 13 y/o on a school trip or her parents.

I wasn't able to find details of the accident. Has anyone?
However, the company did plead guilty to "failing to do everything possible to keep a customer safe".

I don't want to get banned for life, but I am not sure I agree with you, j_ung, for the following reason -- this was a school trip, and this was a 13 y/o. Everything you said makes sense if this was an 18 y/o walking in off the street. But the various "intro to climbing school trip" events make it really hard to figure out who is consenting for what, who is assuming responsibility for what, and set a different expectation of safety than a normal, individual encounter with the sport. The same is true of resort "discover scuba" classes, and many other "recreational adventure" undertakings. Presumably they were taking an abbreviated safety class, or perhaps even getting belayed by the gym's staff. In that environment, even my expectation for injry would be different than normal, nevermind that of a 13 y/o on a school trip or her parents.

I wasn't able to find details of the accident. Has anyone?

First, the fine is in New Zealand dollars, which is like play money, right?

Second, NZ has an administrative tort system, similar to Worker's Comp in the US - compensation for accidents is determined by an administrative agency, not the courts. http://en.wikipedia.org/...ensation_Corporation

I remember them awarding reparation to a person who fell in an ice climbing accident a few years ago - I wonder if the NZ system is institutionally hostile to climbing, or if these are isolated cases.

Wish there was enough information to judge what actually happened. Falling from 9m (30') is going to hurt, yup. But how did she fall from that far?

Improper belay by an employee?
Improper instruction to not climb without a belay?
Inadequate supervision? (How many kids? How many adults?)
Some piece of gym equipment failed?

I'm sorry it happened, but have no idea whether the award is reasonable or not.

A common cause for accidents in climbing gyms is wrongly tied knots, so let's throw that possibility in as well.

Some people think that just because they paid money or because they're doing something indoors, it's automatically safer.

In some respects they're right,

for example, they aren't going to get benighted in a thunderstorm in a gym. But to think that a 30-foot fall inside is going to hurt any less than a 30-foot outside is stupid to the point of being ridiculous.

My argument is that the above quoted statement is an ignorant and dangerous way of thinking.

...
There is a good chance that the gym did NOTHING wrong. The Department of Labour in applying the Health and Safety in Employment Act is of the attitude that NOBODY should get injured in the work place. The notion of acceptable risk is almost non existant.

So from the DoL's point of view. Somebody was badly injured = failure in safety systems = fine for failure. There is no detail in the article but I would not begin to assume the belay was done by an employee.

I thought this was a 13 year old on a school trip? So I don't understand this talk of workplace injury.

And if the child was not belayed by an employee then the gym definately did something wrong. As no beginner in this context should be tied in or belaying without the direct supervision of an employee.

Me. Count me in that group. Climbing in the gym ought to be safer than outside. Simple statement.


In most respects we are right.


That's the trouble with strawman arguments.... they look ridiculous from either side of the equation.


If climbing gyms cannot provide a safe environment for paying beginners to experience some aspects of rock climbing then climbing gyms should not cater to beginners AT ALL

It is completely unreasonable for a beginner to even begin to understand the nature of climbing risk, much less make intelligent decisions about it.

How does a beginner tell a safe gym environment from an unsafe one?

"let the buyer beware" seems completely unsuited to gyms and beginners.

DMT

If climbing gyms cannot provide a safe environment for paying beginners to experience some aspects of rock climbing then climbing gyms should not cater to beginners AT ALL

It is completely unreasonable for a beginner to even begin to understand the nature of climbing risk, much less make intelligent decisions about it.

How does a beginner tell a safe gym environment from an unsafe one?

"let the buyer beware" seems completely unsuited to gyms and beginners.

A common cause for accidents in climbing gyms is wrongly tied knots, so let's throw that possibility in as well.

It's a common cause for accidents in a climbing gym?
I would have thought that it would be on the bottom of the list. But I see how it's possible with beginners to be further up.

Having personally seen someone take a free fall from the top of a wall at my climbing gym (she was either not tied in or perhaps just had her belay device threaded through) -- a sight I'd rather not see again -- I believe it's far more frequent than it seems. That's also why gyms insist on "backups" to the figure-8's, it's not so much about the knot slipping, as it is about ensuring things get put together right.

Wait, if you saw it happen.... how do you not know if the person was not tied in or if the belay device wasn't threaded?