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jnrose5
Feb 8, 2010, 5:33 AM
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I'm curious to hear some thoughts about the rap set up in the attached photo. (In full disclosure, I did not rappel on this set up or actually see it; the photo is that of a friend of a friend.)
I don't have any information about anything beyond what you can see in the photo, other than the blue cord is 4mm diameter.
My personal take on it is that this is probably "safe" but not preferable in any way. I definitely don't climb with 60 meters of 4mm cord, so it seems impractical. Also, I can't tell what kind of knot is used to attach the blue cord to the rope, but I'm also not really sure that it matters. It seems like all of the rappeller's weight would be on the main rope.
As I see it, all of the force of this system would be applied to a knot (looks like a figure 8 knot?) being wedged into the chains. The carabiner appears to be serving only as a backup to the knot jamming technique.
So here are my questions for the forum: Has anyone ever seen/used this technique before? If so, when, where, why, and how? What safety compromises exist in this system, beyond the reduced friction of basically rapping on a single line? If there aren't safety compromises, then how come more people aren't using this set up? This could effectively eliminate the need for carrying a second rap rope - seems like something Mark Twight would use at 20,000 feet.
Any thoughts, criticisms, answers, or rude jokes are appreciated...
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majid_sabet
Feb 8, 2010, 5:40 AM
Post #2 of 26
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jnrose5 wrote: I'm curious to hear some thoughts about the rap set up in the attached photo. (In full disclosure, I did not rappel on this set up or actually see it; the photo is that of a friend of a friend.) I don't have any information about anything beyond what you can see in the photo, other than the blue cord is 4mm diameter. My personal take on it is that this is probably "safe" but not preferable in any way. I definitely don't climb with 60 meters of 4mm cord, so it seems impractical. Also, I can't tell what kind of knot is used to attach the blue cord to the rope, but I'm also not really sure that it matters. It seems like all of the rappeller's weight would be on the main rope. As I see it, all of the force of this system would be applied to a knot (looks like a figure 8 knot?) being wedged into the chains. The carabiner appears to be serving only as a backup to the knot jamming technique. So here are my questions for the forum: Has anyone ever seen/used this technique before? If so, when, where, why, and how? What safety compromises exist in this system, beyond the reduced friction of basically rapping on a single line? If there aren't safety compromises, then how come more people aren't using this set up? This could effectively eliminate the need for carrying a second rap rope - seems like something Mark Twight would use at 20,000 feet. Any thoughts, criticisms, answers, or rude jokes are appreciated...
This is a SOL system to retentive a full rope from an anchor. Generally, you have to have high millage on your harness to start playing with these tricks or you will be killed.
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scottek67
Feb 8, 2010, 5:49 AM
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It doesn't look that bad. The only reason I could see doing that would be to rap 2 pitches at a time to save time and still retrieve the rope.
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vegastradguy
Feb 8, 2010, 7:09 AM
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majid_sabet wrote: jnrose5 wrote: I'm curious to hear some thoughts about the rap set up in the attached photo. (In full disclosure, I did not rappel on this set up or actually see it; the photo is that of a friend of a friend.) I don't have any information about anything beyond what you can see in the photo, other than the blue cord is 4mm diameter. My personal take on it is that this is probably "safe" but not preferable in any way. I definitely don't climb with 60 meters of 4mm cord, so it seems impractical. Also, I can't tell what kind of knot is used to attach the blue cord to the rope, but I'm also not really sure that it matters. It seems like all of the rappeller's weight would be on the main rope. As I see it, all of the force of this system would be applied to a knot (looks like a figure 8 knot?) being wedged into the chains. The carabiner appears to be serving only as a backup to the knot jamming technique. So here are my questions for the forum: Has anyone ever seen/used this technique before? If so, when, where, why, and how? What safety compromises exist in this system, beyond the reduced friction of basically rapping on a single line? If there aren't safety compromises, then how come more people aren't using this set up? This could effectively eliminate the need for carrying a second rap rope - seems like something Mark Twight would use at 20,000 feet. Any thoughts, criticisms, answers, or rude jokes are appreciated... This is a SOL system to retentive a full rope from an anchor. Generally, you have to have high millage on your harness to start playing with these tricks or you will be killed.
dont listen to the resident idiot. this isnt a beginner setup, but a basic understanding of it and you can use it just as easily as the rest of us.
its just another method for doing a double rope rappel- but instead of rapping on two ropes, you rap on one and have a pull cord.
there are several drawbacks, of course-
the 4mm strikes me as a little thin- most folks i know who use this system use 6mm or so. 4mm would be tough to pull- i'd also be a little leery of tying it directly to the rope like that- i'd be more inclined to tie it to the carabiner- again, another reason to use 6mm. finally, 4mm cord could be cut VERY easily on a rope pull over an edge or just about anything....
if you get the rope stuck, your only means of going to get it will be soloing. (and of course the big fig-8 knot and carabiner could stick easier than an overhand)
that much thin cord can tangle like a sonofabitch, which can be a PITA.
and, of course, if the pull is tough, its going to be even tougher with a 6mm cord biting into your hands than it would be with the 10mm fatty thats in the picture.
personally, i dont care for this type of system- if im going to bother carrying two lines, they might as well both be useful, even if a little more weight is involved- my trail line is a half rope (8.6mm) which i can lead on in a pinch and of course rap on instead of doing a single rope.
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brokesomeribs
Feb 8, 2010, 8:03 AM
Post #5 of 26
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vegastradguy wrote: its just another method for doing a double rope rappel- but instead of rapping on two ropes, you rap on one and have a pull cord. there are several drawbacks, of course- the 4mm strikes me as a little thin- most folks i know who use this system use 6mm or so. 4mm would be tough to pull- i'd also be a little leery of tying it directly to the rope like that- i'd be more inclined to tie it to the carabiner- again, another reason to use 6mm. finally, 4mm cord could be cut VERY easily on a rope pull over an edge or just about anything.... if you get the rope stuck, your only means of going to get it will be soloing. (and of course the big fig-8 knot and carabiner could stick easier than an overhand) that much thin cord can tangle like a sonofabitch, which can be a PITA. and, of course, if the pull is tough, its going to be even tougher with a 6mm cord biting into your hands than it would be with the 10mm fatty thats in the picture. personally, i dont care for this type of system- if im going to bother carrying two lines, they might as well both be useful, even if a little more weight is involved- my trail line is a half rope (8.6mm) which i can lead on in a pinch and of course rap on instead of doing a single rope.
Quoted for truth. This is as complete an answer as I could muster.
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cantbuymefriends
Feb 8, 2010, 12:41 PM
Post #6 of 26
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jnrose5 wrote: As I see it, all of the force of this system would be applied to a knot (looks like a figure 8 knot?) being wedged into the chains. The carabiner appears to be serving only as a backup to the knot jamming technique.
Not sure that there's a practical difference. Maybe that was what you meant? My english might be a bit shaky. 
jnrose5 wrote: So here are my questions for the forum: Has anyone ever seen/used this technique before? If so, when, where, why, and how? What safety compromises exist in this system, beyond the reduced friction of basically rapping on a single line? If there aren't safety compromises, then how come more people aren't using this set up? This could effectively eliminate the need for carrying a second rap rope - seems like something Mark Twight would use at 20,000 feet.
Pro: If using a fixed anchor, you don't have to go back to the top to get the rope down.
Con: You can't mix up on the rope ends, and you can't use the "free" end for backup!
I guess that most "normal" people use half or twin ropes for the extra security in case one get a core shot.
Can't comment on Twight's preferences though... 
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kachoong
Feb 8, 2010, 1:50 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: ...if im going to bother carrying two lines, they might as well both be useful...
^^ This!
Only time I'd use cord that thin would be to pull a rope through toprope biners at a gym.
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billl7
Feb 8, 2010, 1:57 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: and, of course, if the pull is tough, its going to be even tougher with a 6mm cord biting into your hands than it would be with the 10mm fatty thats in the picture.
A 6mm can be pretty unforgiving let alone a 4mm. When pulling down the skinny, any friction from the fatty running up over rock is going to feel amplified by the ratio of the fatty-to-skinny diameters. Think of the hardest pull you've had to do and multiply that by two or three. Sort of a worst case is when the rap anchor is at the top of a sloping slab which leads to a vertical drop.
If you know the rap is a straight drop from the anchor - typically no problem with a 6mm (can't speak for a 4 mm). But how many times do you know that for sure?
And if the rap is not a straight drop, the loop is going to tend to stick on things on the way down in which case any last bit of "forgiveness" is very likely going to evaporate.
That said, sometimes I'll take a tag line but 6mm is my minimum and not in that configuration.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 8, 2010, 1:59 PM)
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builttospill
Feb 8, 2010, 2:41 PM
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You've gotten some really good answers--more comprehensive than anything I could or will provide.
I will just say that I have used this setup, but not with such a thin pull cord. I've used a 6mm pull cord and I believe a friend of mine has used 5mm a few times. The advantages are that cords like this are cheaper and lighter than a twin or half rope or even a light 8mm static rope.
The disadvantages have all been mentioned.
I would never really consider using this system unless there was some reason I wanted to climb on a single (i.e. for rope management reasons) and if the approach was long. I would never bother while trad cragging, but for alpine climbs that are a long way into the wilderness, it might be worth it, depending on a host of other factors. Of course your other options for wilderness routes have their own unique advantages (twin ropes, half ropes, etc) and I've used a set of twins quite a bit on alpine climbs.
It is plenty safe as far as I'm concerned, though I prefer a biner block to a knot block, personally.
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majid_sabet
Feb 8, 2010, 5:59 PM
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j_ung wrote: majid_sabet wrote: This is a SOL system to retentive a full rope from an anchor. Generally, you have to have high millage on your harness to start playing with these tricks or you will be killed. I don't think this is an "SOL system." It's more like a travel-light system. I know a few people who use it often, and I wouldn't call them shit outta luck. I'll echo the above comment about 4mm cord seeming a bit thin, though.
well, you can truly do it in a full clean vertical rock situation. trying to do this a semi crack formation or places where you could get it stuck is asking for rescue especially in multi pitch wall.
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majid_sabet
Feb 8, 2010, 6:02 PM
Post #12 of 26
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vegastradguy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: jnrose5 wrote: I'm curious to hear some thoughts about the rap set up in the attached photo. (In full disclosure, I did not rappel on this set up or actually see it; the photo is that of a friend of a friend.) I don't have any information about anything beyond what you can see in the photo, other than the blue cord is 4mm diameter. My personal take on it is that this is probably "safe" but not preferable in any way. I definitely don't climb with 60 meters of 4mm cord, so it seems impractical. Also, I can't tell what kind of knot is used to attach the blue cord to the rope, but I'm also not really sure that it matters. It seems like all of the rappeller's weight would be on the main rope. As I see it, all of the force of this system would be applied to a knot (looks like a figure 8 knot?) being wedged into the chains. The carabiner appears to be serving only as a backup to the knot jamming technique. So here are my questions for the forum: Has anyone ever seen/used this technique before? If so, when, where, why, and how? What safety compromises exist in this system, beyond the reduced friction of basically rapping on a single line? If there aren't safety compromises, then how come more people aren't using this set up? This could effectively eliminate the need for carrying a second rap rope - seems like something Mark Twight would use at 20,000 feet. Any thoughts, criticisms, answers, or rude jokes are appreciated... This is a SOL system to retentive a full rope from an anchor. Generally, you have to have high millage on your harness to start playing with these tricks or you will be killed. but a basic understanding of it and you can use it just as easily as the rest of us. its just another method for doing a double rope rappel- but instead of rapping on two ropes, you rap on one and have a pull cord. there are several drawbacks, of course- the 4mm strikes me as a little thin- most folks i know who use this system use 6mm or so. 4mm would be tough to pull- i'd also be a little leery of tying it directly to the rope like that- i'd be more inclined to tie it to the carabiner- again, another reason to use 6mm. finally, 4mm cord could be cut VERY easily on a rope pull over an edge or just about anything.... if you get the rope stuck, your only means of going to get it will be soloing. (and of course the big fig-8 knot and carabiner could stick easier than an overhand) that much thin cord can tangle like a sonofabitch, which can be a PITA. and, of course, if the pull is tough, its going to be even tougher with a 6mm cord biting into your hands than it would be with the 10mm fatty thats in the picture. personally, i dont care for this type of system- if im going to bother carrying two lines, they might as well both be useful, even if a little more weight is involved- my trail line is a half rope (8.6mm) which i can lead on in a pinch and of course rap on instead of doing a single rope.
MR STONEMASTER
whats the difference between
"this isnt a beginner setup"
and
"you have to have high millage on your harness to start playing with these tricks"
?
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kachoong
Feb 8, 2010, 6:29 PM
Post #13 of 26
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majid_sabet wrote: vegastradguy wrote: majid_sabet wrote: jnrose5 wrote: I'm curious to hear some thoughts about the rap set up in the attached photo. (In full disclosure, I did not rappel on this set up or actually see it; the photo is that of a friend of a friend.) I don't have any information about anything beyond what you can see in the photo, other than the blue cord is 4mm diameter. My personal take on it is that this is probably "safe" but not preferable in any way. I definitely don't climb with 60 meters of 4mm cord, so it seems impractical. Also, I can't tell what kind of knot is used to attach the blue cord to the rope, but I'm also not really sure that it matters. It seems like all of the rappeller's weight would be on the main rope. As I see it, all of the force of this system would be applied to a knot (looks like a figure 8 knot?) being wedged into the chains. The carabiner appears to be serving only as a backup to the knot jamming technique. So here are my questions for the forum: Has anyone ever seen/used this technique before? If so, when, where, why, and how? What safety compromises exist in this system, beyond the reduced friction of basically rapping on a single line? If there aren't safety compromises, then how come more people aren't using this set up? This could effectively eliminate the need for carrying a second rap rope - seems like something Mark Twight would use at 20,000 feet. Any thoughts, criticisms, answers, or rude jokes are appreciated... This is a SOL system to retentive a full rope from an anchor. Generally, you have to have high millage on your harness to start playing with these tricks or you will be killed. but a basic understanding of it and you can use it just as easily as the rest of us. its just another method for doing a double rope rappel- but instead of rapping on two ropes, you rap on one and have a pull cord. there are several drawbacks, of course- the 4mm strikes me as a little thin- most folks i know who use this system use 6mm or so. 4mm would be tough to pull- i'd also be a little leery of tying it directly to the rope like that- i'd be more inclined to tie it to the carabiner- again, another reason to use 6mm. finally, 4mm cord could be cut VERY easily on a rope pull over an edge or just about anything.... if you get the rope stuck, your only means of going to get it will be soloing. (and of course the big fig-8 knot and carabiner could stick easier than an overhand) that much thin cord can tangle like a sonofabitch, which can be a PITA. and, of course, if the pull is tough, its going to be even tougher with a 6mm cord biting into your hands than it would be with the 10mm fatty thats in the picture. personally, i dont care for this type of system- if im going to bother carrying two lines, they might as well both be useful, even if a little more weight is involved- my trail line is a half rope (8.6mm) which i can lead on in a pinch and of course rap on instead of doing a single rope. MR STONEMASTER whats the difference between "this isnt a beginner setup" and "you have to have high millage on your harness to start playing with these tricks" ?
Because you only highlighted a part of his whole sentence. The setup isn't exactly rocket science.
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tomtom
Feb 8, 2010, 11:05 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: Generally, you have to have high millage on your harness to start playing with these tricks or you will be killed.
If you have high mileage on your harness, you should be thinking about replacing said harness or you will be killed.
(This post was edited by tomtom on Feb 8, 2010, 11:05 PM)
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Oddball
Feb 8, 2010, 11:19 PM
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I dont know how many people actually read their Grigri manual (if they bought one) but they show a very similar setup to this in it, so that you can single line rap and still get your rope back.
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builttospill
Feb 9, 2010, 6:37 AM
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I'm honestly surprised this is even becoming that big of a deal. This isn't some sketchball method....it's in at least a couple of books I've read on rope work and mountaineering (maybe freedom of the hills? don't remember....).
How the hell else would someone rap with a single line and thin pull line if not with a knot-block or biner-block? There's probably another way, but I know this seems to be commonly accepted in my neck of the woods.
And while it's not the first thing I'd teach a beginner, it doesn't take a genius to learn it and implement it. It just takes necessity...
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dugl33
Feb 10, 2010, 2:04 AM
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I'm skimming here, but how come no one has mentioned the rusty single chain-link and the single smash link?
Those components are more suspect than the rigging...
(This post was edited by dugl33 on Feb 10, 2010, 2:09 AM)
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evanwish
Feb 11, 2010, 10:42 PM
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what if to solve the problem of having the pain of pulling the 4 or 6mm you tied a garda hitch, and looped it via a sling around your foot, and just pulled it by pumping your foot?
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dan2see
Feb 11, 2010, 11:25 PM
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I would simply encourage Rose to use two ropes. Singles or doubles, either scheme is good.
If I was climbing with Rose, I'd take along my own rope, and we'd share both.
Then we could use a "standard" rap knot, a "standard" rap method, and no fooling around. And we'd get back down, safe.
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EvilMonkey
Feb 12, 2010, 1:01 AM
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well, it's a hell of a lot safer than the fifi hook retrieval method, but not nearly as badass.
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sherpa79
Feb 12, 2010, 1:05 AM
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This style of pull down rappell is used a lot more frequently in canyoneering I believe. I've used it caving in pull down trips. I think it is less applicable in climbing but it does have it's uses.
The thing you have to watch out for is that the knot will actually jam well in the link (obviously). But you are still in a closed system if it slips through, but you won't be able to pull down. You can also forgo the carabiner if a regular 8 is big enough to jam. Just use a running 8 or similar running knot.There are also better ways to secure the pull line to the rope, but it seems like what's in the picture would work.
As far as the diameter of the pull cord goes though, you guys must just have soft hands  I routinely use 2 mil spectra cord as a pull line an work to pull climbing lines up and over tree limbs. Granted, you are almost never working with a full 60 meter length which does add some more weight. You can use a couple wraps around a biner to pull the thin stuff as well. Pull down, lighten up and put the biner higher on the pull line and pull again. The 1.8 spectra stuff has about a 400 pound test I believe.
As far as keeping it from clustering, especially the 2 mil stuff, you have to bag or box it. But you can get more 2 mil in something the size of a chalk bag than you would ever use. However, it DOES suck on windy days..
Pull downs are a useful tool, but they can be a little finicky. Unfortunately the only way to figure out the kinks in various environments is to try it. Just keep the safetly margin large in the beginning. Like anything I guess....
How does one get the resident idiot badge? Can I get one? Do I have to, like, tie knots? Or, make a crochet hot pan holder? That would be SWEET.
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sherpa79
Feb 12, 2010, 1:09 AM
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EvilMonkey wrote: well, it's a hell of a lot safer than the fifi hook retrieval method, but not nearly as badass.
YES!!!!!
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shredwell
Oct 3, 2011, 9:34 PM
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check out this pic!
last picture, long rap. clove hitch.
http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/tech/blocks.php
don't know if this will be relevant to the discussion any longer, but i've been researching and wanted to help!
namaste, bitches! :)
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tolman_paul
Oct 3, 2011, 10:57 PM
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dugl33 wrote: I'm skimming here, but how come no one has mentioned the rusty single chain-link and the single smash link? Those components are more suspect than the rigging... [Inline single_line_r.jpg]
Compared to some of the stuff I've come across at the top of ice climbs, that setup doesn't look 1/2 bad. When you find yourself topping out to rotted out webbing and a hollow smc rap ring that is 1/2 worn trhough from people lowering off it, then you'll know what a sketchy anchor is.
My personal preference would be for a length of 5/16" chain from each bolt with the rope going through each final link, but it's not something I normally carry with me when cilmbing.
Back to the o/p, put me in the camp that carries two climbing ropes when I know I'll have to rap. With the 1/2-twin ropes on the market, a dedicated pull line seems like a specialized compromise piece of gear.
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marc801
Oct 3, 2011, 11:03 PM
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shredwell wrote: check out this pic! last picture, long rap. clove hitch. http://canyoneeringusa.com/utah/tech/blocks.php don't know if this will be relevant to the discussion any longer, but i've been researching and wanted to help! namaste, bitches! :)
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