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Storjon
Feb 9, 2010, 10:13 AM
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The DMM Dragon cams in their final form were on display at the ISPO trade show this week.
See photos and description here: http://rockclimbingcompany.blogspot.com/2010/02/dmm-dragon-cams.html
Interesting thumb stop design, full 14 kn strength even when extended and the strand separation makes for easier reclipping when extending sling.
I find that on u-stem designs I rather use my palm than my thumb when pulling the trigger and the dragons have maybe taken this concept a bit further?
Also note the super short axle-stem attachment for superior flexiness.
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coolcat83
Feb 9, 2010, 1:32 PM
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Storjon wrote: The DMM Dragon cams in their final form were on display at the ISPO trade show this week. See photos and description here: http://rockclimbingcompany.blogspot.com/...dmm-dragon-cams.html Interesting thumb stop design, full 14 kn strength even when extended and the strand separation makes for easier reclipping when extending sling. I find that on u-stem designs I rather use my palm than my thumb when pulling the trigger and the dragons have maybe taken this concept a bit further? Also note the super short axle-stem attachment for superior flexiness.
clicky
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kobaz
Feb 9, 2010, 1:39 PM
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Any word on price?
If they are the same as BD's, it's not much of an improvement.
It's interesting that they forgo the thumb loop. I much prefer the thumb loop, especially for aid climbing where you want to clip directly.
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johnwesely
Feb 9, 2010, 1:48 PM
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kobaz wrote: Any word on price? If they are the same as BD's, it's not much of an improvement. It's interesting that they forgo the thumb loop. I much prefer the thumb loop, especially for aid climbing where you want to clip directly.
They are lighter than the BDs.
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supos
Feb 9, 2010, 1:54 PM
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johnwesely wrote: kobaz wrote: Any word on price? If they are the same as BD's, it's not much of an improvement. It's interesting that they forgo the thumb loop. I much prefer the thumb loop, especially for aid climbing where you want to clip directly. They are lighter than the BDs.
And the extendable sling is a very nice feature. The way I see it, any improvement is welcome, however small it may be.
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johnwesely
Feb 9, 2010, 1:56 PM
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supos wrote: johnwesely wrote: kobaz wrote: Any word on price? If they are the same as BD's, it's not much of an improvement. It's interesting that they forgo the thumb loop. I much prefer the thumb loop, especially for aid climbing where you want to clip directly. They are lighter than the BDs. And the extendable sling is a very nice feature. The way I see it, any improvement is welcome, however small it may be.
To me, the improvements really don't justify the extra cost.
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supos
Feb 9, 2010, 2:06 PM
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johnwesely wrote: To me, the improvements really don't justify the extra cost.
What extra cost? From what I heard, the RRP is expected to equal the C4's.
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johnwesely
Feb 9, 2010, 2:07 PM
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supos wrote: johnwesely wrote: To me, the improvements really don't justify the extra cost. What extra cost? From what I heard, the RRP is expected to equal the C4's.
That is not what I heard.
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shoo
Feb 9, 2010, 2:15 PM
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I'm gonna agree with everyone else here and say that I don't like the new thumb press design. Granted, it means they don't have to use that complicate triple swage design any more, but still. I'll fondle them in the store all the same.
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jaablink
Feb 9, 2010, 2:21 PM
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They look nice. Lighter is always better . Wonder what the cost will be?
I am a bit weary of the extendable sling design . The way its setup, when extended - the sling will girth hitch to the head . That hitch is a force multiplier and will weaken the sling considerably. I would like to see the test data on them….
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supos
Feb 9, 2010, 2:34 PM
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jaablink wrote: They look nice. Lighter is always better . Wonder what the cost will be? I am a bit weary of the extendable sling design . The way its setup, when extended - the sling will girth hitch to the head . That hitch is a force multiplier and will weaken the sling considerably. I would like to see the test data on them….
Look closely at the pictures, that's definitely not a girth hitch. It will just wrap around the thumb thingy, which is surely be designed to have a nice smooth curve against the sling.
Anyway, from the article:
"• The thumb grip is very strong in all directions and the sling resists over 14kN in any orientation."
I'm assume this applies to the extended sling, in which case we should all be fine.
One further disadvantage of the missing thumb loop is that you will have to have it properly reslung when the sling becomes too worn to trust, as you can no longer just clip into the loop. But then again, I think most would probably have reslung it at this point anyway.
What's the rumor on pricing then, as I have seemingly been misinformed?
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kachoong
Feb 9, 2010, 3:15 PM
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supos wrote: jaablink wrote: They look nice. Lighter is always better . Wonder what the cost will be? I am a bit weary of the extendable sling design . The way its setup, when extended - the sling will girth hitch to the head . That hitch is a force multiplier and will weaken the sling considerably. I would like to see the test data on them…. Look closely at the pictures, that's definitely not a girth hitch. It will just wrap around the thumb thingy, which is surely be designed to have a nice smooth curve against the sling. Anyway, from the article: "• The thumb grip is very strong in all directions and the sling resists over 14kN in any orientation." I'm assume this applies to the extended sling, in which case we should all be fine. One further disadvantage of the missing thumb loop is that you will have to have it properly reslung when the sling becomes too worn to trust, as you can no longer just clip into the loop. But then again, I think most would probably have reslung it at this point anyway. What's the rumor on pricing then, as I have seemingly been misinformed?
I heard they are a little more at the small end but the same in the #4 size... this site indicates them at $75 for 1-4 ($80 for 5 and 6)
The range is similar to C4 0.5-4. A number 1 is the same as a #0.5 C4, number 4 is the same as a #2 C4 and a number 6 is equivalent to #4 C4
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sherpa79
Feb 9, 2010, 3:34 PM
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Lighter would be the only improvement as far as I can see. I reslung my older BD's without the thumb loop with doubled 5.5 tech cord. Same thing, essentially, as the dragons except heavier.
I still think I might like a thumb loop though.....
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clews
Feb 9, 2010, 6:15 PM
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Looks like some of their prototypes had thumb loops... I wonder why they went away from that. Seems like a mistake to me
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jeepnphreak
Feb 9, 2010, 6:23 PM
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hummmmm... thse look like a rip off the last generation BD C4, with a goofy looing split but end for the sling. Looks like a step backward to me.
I like the thumb loop, I feel I have more control with it plus I can clip directly if need be.
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hafilax
Feb 9, 2010, 6:24 PM
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I'm not a big fan of the doubled sling either but I think it is an elegant solution to the problem of the weakened connection due to thin dyneema and the wrapped around sling. BD had to go to nylon with a reinforced attachment to keep the thumb loop from being damaged in a fall.
I tend to palm the stem when pulling cam triggers especially with the bigger sizes.
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vegastradguy
Feb 9, 2010, 7:08 PM
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dangit, i wish DMM had been at Winter OR so i could have checked these things out. i'm not psyched on the lack of thumb loop, but time will tell on these, i suppose.
i'm sure i'll get a chance to check them out at Summer OR (or sooner, if production runs make it to the states prior to the show).
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moose_droppings
Feb 9, 2010, 7:54 PM
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Knot being able to clip in short might be a deal breaker for me. I can't justify buying a cam just for trad.
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critterdude542
Feb 9, 2010, 8:20 PM
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I thought BD had the patent on the double-axle business. Did they not renew that patent or did DMM find a way around it?
i also think its interesting that they are the same colors as C4s. Price is kind of a doozy
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coolcat83
Feb 9, 2010, 8:44 PM
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i don't like the loop design either, what if i need to cip it for some reason, then i'm sol. trango and metolius have skinny slings and loops and they test just fine.
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supos
Feb 9, 2010, 8:59 PM
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cracklover wrote: critterdude542 wrote: Price is kind of a doozy Y'all keep mentioning a high sticker price. Where are you getting this from?
I'd like to know as well. In Europe, every rumor says they will have the same RRP as C4's. And I don't see why DMM wouldn't follow that marketing strategy in the States as well.
Anyway, I'm surprised noone seem to care about the alleged weight saving. After all the only real critizism of the C4's compared to the competition seems to be the weight. Have the gear head community suddenly decided weight of gear is not an issue after all  ?
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abe_ascends
Feb 9, 2010, 10:01 PM
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I have to agree with the others who have mentioned that the lack of a thumb loop is a bit of a deal-breaker. Might be manageable in the smaller sizes where using the palm of the hand is relatively easy, but I imagine placing gear with the bigger sizes will be a pain. Will have to see, I suppose.
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Jo_Rock
Feb 9, 2010, 10:12 PM
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critterdude542 wrote: I thought BD had the patent on the double-axle business. Did they not renew that patent or did DMM find a way around it?
The double axle design was patented in '85 according to this website: http://www.needlesports.com/...museum/camsstory.htm (about 3/4 down the page)
According to this http://www.freepatentsonline.com/...a-patent-expire.html that patent would have expired in '04.
There are probably other features in the newer Camalots that are patented and could not be directly copied. If a patent has not expired it can also be licensed. I believe this is why Petzl could make Keylock biners even though Kong held the patent. (I think I have that the right way around, but I am just going on memory here.)
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