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Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line?
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Skabbi


Mar 2, 2010, 4:15 AM
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Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line?
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Hi

So I was reading Will Gadd's blog after his recent trip to Norway. He has some interesting tips on fast and efficient movement on long ice routes. One of his tips was to lead on a single rope instead of doubles or twins, and use a tag line for rapping. I've always used doubles when ice-climbing but this sounds interesting. Although doubles are great for a party of three, they add to the cluster and are perhaps better left at home when there are only two people climbing. I used to think that doubles reduced the impact on protection in the case of lead fall but apparently this is not true. Has anybody here used this system (single + tag line)? How does it work and what do you use for a tag line?

Another thing Will mentions is to belay the leader with an auto-blocking device, so that the belayer can eat, drink, take a piss or whatever while safely belaying. He didn't want to specify what device he uses, and I'm curious to know if there is an auto-blocking device that can be used to belay a leader and a second as well as being a rappelling device? Or maybe he just uses a GriGri for belaying and an ATC for rappelling?

Any thoughts?

Skabbi


meanandugly


Mar 2, 2010, 5:14 AM
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Re: [Skabbi] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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Those are some interesting numbers, but I will stick with my doubles. I find that myself and my partners are efficient enough with them and if you are carrying a single and a tag then there is no real weight savings.
But with that said Will Gadd is the man and it is always interesting to see how his tips translate to us less than spectacular climbers


granite_grrl


Mar 2, 2010, 5:50 AM
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Re: [Skabbi] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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We've gone back and forth between single and doubles. Last year, we were all about the doubles, this year we've only used them once or twice and have instead been favoring a new 70m single line we get at the start of the season.

Your post is misleading though: leading with doubles shouldn't take any faster or slower than leading with a single, though depending on the belay it could reduce the cluster. But I feel that this greatly depends on your belay stance and generally your efficiency with doubles.

As for belaying with an autolocking device: I do it all the time. It can be reassuring to use this when you're partner is heading up something like a hard mixed line (falling more likely) and you're belaying with non-dexterous mittens. We use a Grigri, and usually bring up two tube style devices if required, but it's not that big a deal to rap with a Grigri if you have to (note: rapping with a Grigri is covered in other threads and I'm not going into the explanation right now).


altelis


Mar 2, 2010, 6:00 AM
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Re: [meanandugly] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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I've been moving to the single route. I use a 10.2 single because that's what I have in a single, but when it wears out I am thinking of going to 9.8. Who knows.

What I like about the single rope is that I use dbls so infrequently (and so do my partners) that the flow is just way more natural for us to use a single. I will say that we had to remember to bring more long slings with us than we usually did with dbls...

I use a 7 mm "tag line" IF the route requires full length rappels. I put "tag line" in quotes because I find it a lot easier to throw it in a small pack and deal with it that way. If its actually used as a tag line you don't REALLY cut down the cluster factor from using doubles all that much.

I don't use an autlocker, though that said I set up my raps two different ways, and no rhyme or reason to which I choose. Sometimes I just do a straighth dbl rope rap, though there is usually SOME slippage of the skinnier static rope so I only do this if I'm not really pushing the length of the rap. Other times I will just use a variation of a biner/knot block, so its just a single rope rap with a pull cord. If this is your choice than going the whole thing with a grigri would be no problem.

I also won't go into details of that here, plenty of info other places...


Skabbi


Mar 2, 2010, 6:29 AM
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Re: [Skabbi] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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Hi

Thanks for the comments people. Just to clarify; I don't think that leading per se will be any faster with a single, but it might make rope management and belay change-overs simpler and quicker on long routes. I've used singles and a GriGri on short mixed routes before but I've never thought of bringing them on longer routes until now.

I just remembered a youtube video of Steve House explaining the gear he and Vince Anderson used on Nanga Parbat some years ago. They used a single 8.1 mm (Beal Iceline?) for leading and paired it with a 5 mm static line for rapelling. That's a pretty light and skinny system.

And I mean Steve fuckin' House of course...


Skabbi


meanandugly


Mar 2, 2010, 8:59 AM
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Re: [Skabbi] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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I use the beal 8.1's as well, but I don't think I would drop the other one for a 5mm static....then again the thought had crossed my mind.


builttospill


Mar 2, 2010, 8:42 PM
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Re: [meanandugly] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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They've both got their place. I own a set of twins, not doubles, and a thin single rope and tag line (9.2mm single, 6mm tag line). I always bring the twins if climbing in a group of three, which is happening more and more these days.

For real alpine routes, I tend to bring the twins now, partially for the added security of two ropes.

If you want to get really geeked out about saving time and weight, consider the grams per meter of each of your options. I found that a 9.1 or 9.2mm single and a thin tag line were BARELY lighter than a set of twins that are 7.5mm but that they are significantly lighter than some of the 8.5mm half ropes out there. In terms of time, I think the single will save time at belay changeovers (assuming climbing in a group of two only), but will cost extra time when rappelling, because the tag line is more of a burden to deal with in my experience than the two twins. So, you have to weigh those two considerations. Also, the more you use twins/doubles, the better you get at rope management. This is all helped significantly by using an ATC guide, reverso or other autoblock so that you can be sorting things out while your follower is coming up. Of course, if you're truly concerned about speed and efficiency, this goes without saying.


brokesomeribs


Mar 2, 2010, 11:18 PM
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Re: [Skabbi] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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Skabbi wrote:
Hi

So I was reading Will Gadd's blog after his recent trip to Norway. He has some interesting tips on fast and efficient movement on long ice routes. One of his tips was to lead on a single rope instead of doubles or twins, and use a tag line for rapping. I've always used doubles when ice-climbing but this sounds interesting. Although doubles are great for a party of three, they add to the cluster and are perhaps better left at home when there are only two people climbing. I used to think that doubles reduced the impact on protection in the case of lead fall but apparently this is not true. Has anybody here used this system (single + tag line)? How does it work and what do you use for a tag line?

Another thing Will mentions is to belay the leader with an auto-blocking device, so that the belayer can eat, drink, take a piss or whatever while safely belaying. He didn't want to specify what device he uses, and I'm curious to know if there is an auto-blocking device that can be used to belay a leader and a second as well as being a rappelling device? Or maybe he just uses a GriGri for belaying and an ATC for rappelling?

Any thoughts?

Skabbi

Depends on what ropes you use. Using 8.5mm doubles (like the Mammut Genesis - a fantastic rope) is certainly heavier than a good single (like the absolutely unparalleled Mammut Infinity 9.5mm) plus 6mm tag line.

However, my doubles are Metolius Monster 7.8's. Super light, super skinny, and nearly the same weight as my single (Infinity 9.5 as listed above) plus a 7mm tag line. I use the doubles on longer more committing routes or when climbing in a group of 3. They definitely make rope management more of a hassle though. Dealing with 2 ropes takes longer, period, even if you have your system dialed. Even worse though, super-skinny cords have a tendency to get tangled. I definitely spend a good chunk of time detangling my Monsters, although they've gotten considerably better now that I have 15+ pitches on them. In the beginning they tangled at the SLIGHTEST provocation, and yes, I uncoiled them out of the packaging properly.

The link on Gravsports is very interesting. I need to digest it a bit more, but it's certainly changed a large criteria I've historically been using to make my selection about best-rope-for-the-route choice.

Regarding belay device choices, I think you might have misunderstood Will. It's a VERY bad idea to be doing anything extraneous at all while belaying a leader. Belaying (ESPECIALLY on ice) is a dynamic activity and your eyes should NEVER be off the climber. If nothing else, you need to be ready to dodge falling ice (or a dropped ice tool) to save your own ass.

And if I'm wrong, fuck his suggestion. You and your partner are not Will Gadd. You [probably] don't lead WI6 or M10. Your belayer should be watching you, not holding your rope out of the way so it doesn't get soaked in urine while he tries to take a piss.

If I looked down and saw my partner futzing around with anything, I'd start knocking chunks of ice down at him to get his attention. If I was on a route I might be comfortable soloing, I would probably try to hit him too. It would also be the last time I ever climbed with that idiot. I am 99.9% sure Will was referring to using an auto-block when you have just finished leading a pitch, have built the belay, and are now bringing your partner up.

In the above scenario, the device you need would be the Black Diamond ATC-Guide or the Petzl Reverso (or a number of other similar devices). Both are standard tube-style ATCs, but have an auto-block mode for bringing up a second. I wouldn't trade my BD Guide for anything. If you've never used one but decide to go that (highly recommended) route, definitely spend some time getting acquainted with their proper operation on the ground. They're VERY easy to use, but it's just as easy to accidentally thread them upside-down and then kill your second. Seriously.


Skabbi


Mar 3, 2010, 2:09 AM
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Re: [brokesomeribs] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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Hey guys, thanks again for an interesting discussion

I hear you on the doubles vs. single. I've used Beal 8.1 mm Ice-lines for the past three seasons and I think they're great. When climbing in a party of two, they really aren't that much of a hassle and I'm not at all convinced that a single + tag-line would be any better. It's not going to be a much lighter system as a whole but when you think about it, it might make leading a bit easier, since the leader in only tied into the single while the follower carries the tag line to the end of the climb.

Climbing in a group of three will always add to the cluster, especially if you swap leads at all.

brokesomeribs wrote:
Regarding belay device choices, I think you might have misunderstood Will.

-- some stuff --

I am 99.9% sure Will was referring to using an auto-block when you have just finished leading a pitch, have built the belay, and are now bringing your partner up.

Will Gadd wrote:
-Belay the leader with an auto-lock lead belay device. This allows the second to eat, drink, organize the belay, etc. Impact forces are a big discussion when using an auto-lock, I'll just say it's not something I'm concerned about with a good rope, good belay and decent rope management.

brokesomeribs wrote:
And if I'm wrong, fuck his suggestion. You and your partner are not Will Gadd. You [probably] don't lead WI6 or M10.

True, I don't lead WI6 or M10, but I'd still like to be efficient while climbing routes within my capability. Not fucking around at belays sounds like a good idea to speed things up.

I do use a reverso for bringing up the second(s) and that helps alot. The leader can eat and drink or whatever while belaying. The second usually does not have that luxury while belaying and will have to do these things during change-overs. If you block the leads and changeovers are fast, the second will always either be belaying or climbing and will therefore have much less time to hydrate and eat.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not about to leave my reverso at home and bring the GriGri on every ice-climb, but I think these are some interesting points and well-worth thinking about.

Cheers

Skabbi


granite_grrl


Mar 3, 2010, 5:51 AM
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Re: [brokesomeribs] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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brokesomeribs wrote:
Regarding belay device choices, I think you might have misunderstood Will. It's a VERY bad idea to be doing anything extraneous at all while belaying a leader. Belaying (ESPECIALLY on ice) is a dynamic activity and your eyes should NEVER be off the climber. If nothing else, you need to be ready to dodge falling ice (or a dropped ice tool) to save your own ass.

And if I'm wrong, fuck his suggestion. You and your partner are not Will Gadd. You [probably] don't lead WI6 or M10. Your belayer should be watching you, not holding your rope out of the way so it doesn't get soaked in urine while he tries to take a piss.

If I looked down and saw my partner futzing around with anything, I'd start knocking chunks of ice down at him to get his attention. If I was on a route I might be comfortable soloing, I would probably try to hit him too. It would also be the last time I ever climbed with that idiot. I am 99.9% sure Will was referring to using an auto-block when you have just finished leading a pitch, have built the belay, and are now bringing your partner up.
Hey, your inexperiance is showing.

In a way you're lucky that you've never had to belay a leader on a long pitch where they take a super long tie to finish up because it's so hard for them. And you're lucky that you've never had to give this type of belay when it's -20C (~0F) or colder and you're desperate to keep yourself warm.

Eating, pissing and doing the funky chicken dance are all part or trying for trying to keep your self warm when you're stuck on the other end of the rope. And yeah, I've done all three (praise for the freshette!), both when using the Grigri and a tube style device.

I don't know where you get this idea of sneaking off to do all this stuff. Have you ever heard of communication with you're partner? Your partner isn't moving, you can ask if you can tie him off and take a piss 'cause you're suffering. The rest is a lot easier.....I always stash some food in the pockets of my belay jacket. Most idiots are able to eat while giving a good belay on ice. As for the funky chicken.....just try not to pull on the rope too much. If you're partner can feel you doing it, you're doing it wrong.


tomcat


Mar 3, 2010, 6:48 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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I never really get this. A single of say nine something,plus a seven mm tag line is still 16 mm of ropes.Why would you carry around a tag line too small to lead on,when you could have two real ropes.

How do you plan to manage the tag line?Will you carry it's dead weight in your pack,and if swinging leads hand it off to your partner after each pitch?If so,will you swap packs,or take it out and re-arrange each time?You can manage any two rope set up faster.


Or will the leader drag a second inadequate rope as he leads?Or will the second drag it and hope it doesn't jam below.

Belay spaghetti? Sure fire way to have problems is pulling one rope to ledge,then the other.Keep the doubles or twins stacked together and pretty much no problemo.

Drop your lead rope,or have a rock/tool/crampon damage it near the middle and now you are rapping on your tag line.One pitch from the top,will you rap the entire route in half ropelengths since you have no lead capability now,instead of topping out on a single half rope?Do you have a rappel device for two sevens?

If it's in a pack,someone is lugging that dead weight up every move of every pitch.If you lead a 140 foot pitch of ice on two eights,the leader will pull up the remaining two strands of sixty feet while standing at the belay,not while climbing.


(This post was edited by tomcat on Mar 3, 2010, 6:59 AM)


Durin


Mar 3, 2010, 6:57 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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In reply to:
In a way you're lucky that you've never had to belay a leader on a long pitch where they take a super long tie to finish up because it's so hard for them.

granite_grrl wrote:
And you're lucky that you've never had to give this type of belay when it's -20C (~0F) or colder and you're desperate to keep yourself warm.

How do you know?

In reply to:
Your partner isn't moving, you can ask if you can tie him off and take a piss 'cause you're suffering.

Taking the "fast" out of "light and fast"


will_gadd


Mar 3, 2010, 9:19 AM
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Re: [Durin] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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Love the discussion! I looked at some of the questions and tried to answer them, new post up on my blog, draft pasted below, thanks.


-We use a single rope not to save weight (although if you add up the grams/meter it's a close contest), but because it keeps the belays a lot more organized and is generally a lot faster to deal with at transitions. Using two lead ropes invariably turns into a cluster once the ropes get a little icy or the belay is hanging, especially when block leading where the leader is on the "bottom" of the stack. Add in gloves, cold hands, fatigue, etc. etc. and a single lead line is just better when it's better. I use twin ropes, half ropes and single ropes depending on the situation, all have their place. For long relatively fat ice routes without a major approach (more than a few hours) I use a 9.2 to lead on and a 7.7 (sometimes much thinner, but that gets technical and often isn't worth the hassle either) tag line. The tag line either goes in the second's pack or is towed by the leader or second depending on what's going on...

-A good belay on an ice climb is often one where the belayer can't even see the leader. A cave, a nook, some place that totally protects the belayer from falling ice is essential, and to not establish sheltered belays while leading a block is a crime punishable by free hotel-priced scotch for the second (if he or she isn't in the hospital). An attentive belay is always good, but ice climbing is a very different game than hard rock climbing... On a 70M pitch you're often run five to ten meters between screws, the belayer's main job is to catch a catastrophic fall and not short-rope the leader. There are of course times when every inch counts, and a good team will recognize those situations and respond appropriately.

-I'd generally rather have a belayer using a gri-gri than the other options while he or she is taking a leak, eating a piece of pizza, drinking, finishing a V-thread, and all the other chores that go into being a good team on a long route. I'm comfortable with that, but if you're not then by all means don't do it. Seriously, no sarcasm, you have to know your partner and the situation. Some partner's I'd trust with just an ATC while doing all of the above, some partners I assume I'm soloing even if they are looking at me the whole time. Definitely do use an auto-lock for belaying the second, no reason not to.

-All these points are about making the transitions and climb faster. There are likely safer ways of doing things; four screws at each belay, a screw ever two meters on each 70M+ pitch, etc. etc. These transition ideas work great on relatively fat pure ice routes like Polar Circus, Willoughby routes or most Norwegian ice routes.

Thanks for the thoughts, always good to try and make my scribblings clearer and less convoluted.

Best,

WG


(This post was edited by will_gadd on Mar 3, 2010, 9:26 AM)


brokesomeribs


Mar 3, 2010, 9:43 AM
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Re: [granite_grrl] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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granite_grrl wrote:
brokesomeribs wrote:
Regarding belay device choices, I think you might have misunderstood Will. It's a VERY bad idea to be doing anything extraneous at all while belaying a leader. Belaying (ESPECIALLY on ice) is a dynamic activity and your eyes should NEVER be off the climber. If nothing else, you need to be ready to dodge falling ice (or a dropped ice tool) to save your own ass.

And if I'm wrong, fuck his suggestion. You and your partner are not Will Gadd. You [probably] don't lead WI6 or M10. Your belayer should be watching you, not holding your rope out of the way so it doesn't get soaked in urine while he tries to take a piss.

If I looked down and saw my partner futzing around with anything, I'd start knocking chunks of ice down at him to get his attention. If I was on a route I might be comfortable soloing, I would probably try to hit him too. It would also be the last time I ever climbed with that idiot. I am 99.9% sure Will was referring to using an auto-block when you have just finished leading a pitch, have built the belay, and are now bringing your partner up.
Hey, your inexperiance is showing.

In a way you're lucky that you've never had to belay a leader on a long pitch where they take a super long tie to finish up because it's so hard for them. And you're lucky that you've never had to give this type of belay when it's -20C (~0F) or colder and you're desperate to keep yourself warm.

Eating, pissing and doing the funky chicken dance are all part or trying for trying to keep your self warm when you're stuck on the other end of the rope. And yeah, I've done all three (praise for the freshette!), both when using the Grigri and a tube style device.

I don't know where you get this idea of sneaking off to do all this stuff. Have you ever heard of communication with you're partner? Your partner isn't moving, you can ask if you can tie him off and take a piss 'cause you're suffering. The rest is a lot easier.....I always stash some food in the pockets of my belay jacket. Most idiots are able to eat while giving a good belay on ice. As for the funky chicken.....just try not to pull on the rope too much. If you're partner can feel you doing it, you're doing it wrong.

GraniteGrl - you're right, sort of. I'm a NE ice climber. With the notable exception of Willoughby (where I've never climbed - it's 8 hours away and to top it off, I'm too much of a big fat pussy to lead any of those routes) most of our routes are shorter and less committing than out West. I've never done any of the huge routes out in Hyalite, the PNW, etc. I wish they were in my backyard. If nothing else, I'd probably be less of a pussy.

But I've certainly been on very long multi pitch belays in 0F (-20C) temps. I certainly keep candy bars in my belay jacket. What I took issue with was the notion that if you're belaying with a GriGri, you can somehow do all these great things because the GriGri will cover you. I'm not saying that was WG's explanation at all, it just seemed as that was how it was interpreted by the OP and I wanted to steer him away from that idea, strongly. I personally feel GriGri's breed inattentiveness, or at the very least, complacency. And yes, there are shitty belayers who shouldn't be belaying, no matter what device they're using. I also tend to prefer belaying with an atc for a slightly softer catch no matter what type of climbing I'm doing. It's softer on the pro and less strain to the rope.

And on a very hard routes where my partner is working things out slowly to make sure he doesn't pop off that dime-edge hook 5 meters above his last stubby, you better believe that I'll piss in my pants before asking him to tie off.

And finally, OH SNAP! Nice of you to pop in WG! Thanks for clarifying your thoughts and doing so in a gracious manner. It's always refreshing to see someone stay out of the muck down here on RC.


brokesomeribs


Mar 3, 2010, 9:46 AM
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Re: [will_gadd] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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will_gadd wrote:
I'd generally rather have a belayer using a gri-gri than the other options while he or she is taking a leak, eating a piece of pizza, drinking, finishing a V-thread, and all the other chores that go into being a good team on a long route. I'm comfortable with that, but if you're not then by all means don't do it. Seriously, no sarcasm, you have to know your partner and the situation. Some partner's I'd trust with just an ATC while doing all of the above, some partners I assume I'm soloing even if they are looking at me the whole time. Definitely do use an auto-lock for belaying the second, no reason not to.

I just want to make it very clear that if pizza is on the menu on any of your climbs, I'm happy to be belay slave and follow you up anything. I've been doing it wrong all this time, suffering through frozen Clif bars!


meanandugly


Mar 3, 2010, 12:58 PM
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Re: [brokesomeribs] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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quote "brokesomeribs"]
And finally, OH SNAP! Nice of you to pop in WG! Thanks for clarifying your thoughts and doing so in a gracious manner. It's always refreshing to see someone stay out of the muck down here on RC.
I'll second that.


Partner brent_e


Mar 3, 2010, 6:48 PM
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Re: [Skabbi] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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a reverso, trango b52, or atc guide are good autoblock devices. Granit_grrl's partner was the first to show me how to properly use these and i've never looked back. It's super easy to belay a second safely while sorthing stuff out.


Skabbi


Mar 4, 2010, 5:19 AM
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Thanks for the discussion people. It was nice to see Will drop by and explain the system, much appreciated. It seems like many people misunderstood the concept at first go. I understand the strengths and weaknesses of both systems better now.

Cheers

Skabbi


skinner


Mar 4, 2010, 5:50 PM
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Re: [Skabbi] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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I've been using a single and a tag-line for rock and ice for around 10 years now and find it works great for me. If the situation calls for something different, I use whatever works best, but primarily it's it's a 9.2 and a 7mm tag-line.

tomcat wrote:
I never really get this. A single of say nine something,plus a seven mm tag line is still 16 mm of ropes.Why would you carry around a tag line too small to lead on,when you could have two real ropes.

How do you plan to manage the tag line?Will you carry it's dead weight in your pack,and if swinging leads hand it off to your partner after each pitch?If so,will you swap packs,or take it out and re-arrange each time?You can manage any two rope set up faster.


Or will the leader drag a second inadequate rope as he leads?Or will the second drag it and hope it doesn't jam below.

As Will mentioned, it's not a matter of weight.. for me it's more the bulk factor. I stuff the tag-line into a small 5 liter stuff sack. It makes a nice neat little package that doesn't take up much room in the seconds pack. When it comes time to rap, you join the two ropes and toss the stuff sack in a water-rescue-rope-bag fashion. (Just remember to have the far end tied to the sack, mine has an internal loop sewn into the bottom for this).
While any rope becomes more difficult to toss when it's windy, a 7mm can be truly problematic, which is where the stuff sack come in really handy. When descending in exceptionally windy conditions, you may have to re-stuff the rope at each rap in order to toss it. This is actually not that difficult, you just have one person stuff as the other pulls the rope. I use a dry-bag for a stuff sack because the thicker material allows it to stand or hang up on it's own in a pail-like fashion, which makes it much easier to feed the rope into.


If you plan on trying this system, there's a couple things you might want to consider.

Your static line needs to be longer then your main line, otherwise when you rap, you'll wind up with the static end substantially shorter as you weight and stretch out your main line. I buy the static line 5 meters longer, stretch the two lines out (while weighted by my heavier partner) and cut the 7mm about a meter longer in case it needs to take a really heavy load one day, and keep whatever I lop off for cordage.

If you rap with a tube-style device, you will want to rap with the heavier main line threaded through the anchor. With dissimilar diameter ropes running through a tube device, the smaller rope will tend to run through the device faster and you will effectively be pulling the ropes through the anchor as you descend. By threading the main line through the anchor, the knot will *usually* jam at the anchor and prevent this. But it's something you should certainly be aware of.

I like to thread the rope through the next anchor before pulling it down from the last. In doing this you will end up alternating which rope is running through the anchor, unless you untie and re-tie, the ropes each time. This is one of the many reasons I don't use a tube type device, but that's another thread all of it's own.


Skabbi


Mar 5, 2010, 4:37 AM
Post #20 of 23 (6606 views)
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Re: [skinner] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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Hey dude, nice reply

In reply to:
I like to thread the rope through the next anchor before pulling it down from the last. In doing this you will end up alternating which rope is running through the anchor, unless you untie and re-tie, the ropes each time.

Yeah, that's how we use the doubles, alternate the rope through the anchor. I guess that doesn't really matter if you thread your V-treads with cord or webbing, you can place the knot on either side for the pull. If the ice is dry I like to thread the rope streight through the V-thread, but that's probably not a good idea with a single anyway.

In reply to:
This is one of the many reasons I don't use a tube type device, but that's another thread all of it's own.

So what do you use instead?

Cheers

Skabbi


the_climber


Mar 7, 2010, 10:05 PM
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Re: [Skabbi] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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Skabbi wrote:
Hey dude, nice reply

In reply to:
I like to thread the rope through the next anchor before pulling it down from the last. In doing this you will end up alternating which rope is running through the anchor, unless you untie and re-tie, the ropes each time.

Yeah, that's how we use the doubles, alternate the rope through the anchor. I guess that doesn't really matter if you thread your V-treads with cord or webbing, you can place the knot on either side for the pull. If the ice is dry I like to thread the rope streight through the V-thread, but that's probably not a good idea with a single anyway.

In reply to:
This is one of the many reasons I don't use a tube type device, but that's another thread all of it's own.

So what do you use instead?


Cheers

Skabbi

Skinner and I both typically use 8's, or figure 8 like devices (Trango Magic for example). a reason for this is we use ropes of dissimilar diameter more often then not. if the lines are not the same diameter the thinner line will run through a tube device at a faster rate than the main line (or thicker line)... not the best situation to be in, one rope getting shorter as you rap. There are also tricks you can do with an 8 that cannot be done with the same ease as a tube style device. If you understand how they work 8's do not twist the rope as rumours suggest.


the_climber


Mar 7, 2010, 10:25 PM
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Re: [skinner] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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skinner wrote:
Your static line needs to be longer then your main line, otherwise when you rap, you'll wind up with the static end substantially shorter as you weight and stretch out your main line. I buy the static line 5 meters longer, stretch the two lines out (while weighted by my heavier partner) and cut the 7mm about a meter longer in case it needs to take a really heavy load one day, and keep whatever I lop off for cordage.

As the "heavier partner" skinner makes reference to I'll add to that a little. We use tag lines matched up to 50m 11mm ropes (for aid), and ropes of varying diameter including 60m, 70m, and 80m ropes... yes up to 80m! You have to account for the stretch in the rope, AND you have to account for the amount of weight on the rope too. The 7mm tag line we have matched up to our 70m rope (Beal Joker) is about 6-7m longer than the rope. Move to the 80m rope and we're up to over 10m longer! This is due to the "extra" stretch for the "heavier partner" (ie me), and the extra weight of gear effedcting the stretch over a longer rope. The weight difference is not as extreme as some think... about 45-50lbs tops. Skinner always has lots extra, I do not.... but I have more stretch in the rope. These are all things to consider.

For example, last week we rapped off a climb with just the 80m rope doubled over. On the final rap of approx 45m we opted to lower skinner and have me rap as he does not have enough weight to stretch the rope to it's full potential on rap. I was able to lower him 4m past the middle mark, then rap to the end with a perfect landing at ground level. 8m stretch total over the length of the rope.

So, what is the point? Is "the_climber" fat? Too heavy? No... Well not anymore, but that's a different discussion.
The point is that you have to account for the max weight you'll be rapping with. A 50lbs pack can and will make all the difference when a static tag line is used bacause your dynamic rope WILL stretch more. Simply account for this when you decide the length you cut your tag line at. Order/cut it long, then fine tune the length. Best to get it right before you're beat tired from that epic day and rapping with the assumption the ropes are both the correct length.


Partner brent_e


Mar 8, 2010, 2:56 PM
Post #23 of 23 (6376 views)
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Re: [the_climber] Leading ice on single, rapping with tag line? [In reply to]
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for the cost of the extra tagline why not just go 10-12m over the dynamic length and have some extra for tat in a pinch? is there some reason not to do this???


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