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panacea82


Mar 4, 2010, 8:48 PM
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Hauling a pig
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 How do you all like to haul a pig. I have only used a mini-trax with body weight as a counter,but now that im looking at more walls on el cap. I know the basics for a 3 to 1 and a 5 to 1 but just wondering if anyone has any tricks up there sleeve that they would want to share.


shimanilami


Mar 4, 2010, 10:43 PM
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If you're going to be hauling big loads, you'll appreciate having a bigger hauling pulley. I like the protraxion, but I can understand why they scare people. (If you torque them wrong, they can explode.)

I'll use the 3:1 at the start of a big climb (4+ days), but I usually go direct after half way. My partner, who weighs 135 lbs, uses the 3:1 the whole way. It's definitely worthwhile. There's no sense in killing yourself just hauling a pig.

It helps to have an efficient, ergonomic set up. It's something you'll just have to work at, though, and not something easily taught in a book or through the internet. An inch difference here or there can make all the difference in the "rythm and flow" as you haul. You'll just have to tinker with it until you've got it dialed for yourself.

El Cap is paradise, man. I can't wait to get on it again.


skiclimb


Mar 5, 2010, 12:10 AM
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Re: [panacea82] Hauling a pig [In reply to]
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1 to 1

get the largest smoothest pulley you can find (with bearings) I have an ancient CMI.

for me i found that a petzl ascender fit perfectly on the same biner and provided my cam-stop.

I have tried the protraxion ..in comparison it sucks ass to a good real pully and ascender setup

the rest is just grunt ass work.. tie into the downward hauline and shove downward with feet and waist while pulling up on the upward side of the haul line...

back the shite up!!!

i always put 2 quickdraws from the anchor into the downward side of the haul system..incase the axle of the pully fails. still there is the risk that if the pulley fails (never heard of it happening) the cam wil;l become the constriction and cut the rope..

However it is the damn fasted way to haul i know of


(This post was edited by skiclimb on Mar 5, 2010, 12:11 AM)


Partner euroford


Mar 8, 2010, 11:35 AM
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Re: [skiclimb] Hauling a pig [In reply to]
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i find the protraxion to be totally adequate. i'm sure there are better things out there, but not so much that i'm going to make it a priority.

hauling sucks, its allot of work, there isn't really any way around that. even if you have the best possible equipment and technique. but its totally doable and if you suck it up its over before you know it.

having a couple of small pulleys available is a good idea. that way if you get in trouble, you can easily convert to 3:1.

the one time i had to use a 3:1 was a low-angled blocky kind of situation where the bags were draggin. it SUCKED. the 3:1 works, but it drags our the pain 3x longer. avoid if at all possible.


Durin


Mar 8, 2010, 2:53 PM
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In my limited experience I've found a couple of things helpful:

-if you're having trouble, make sure you're wearing the rack. Could make you 20-30 lbs heavier!

-during blastoff, when the piggy is heaviest, you and your partner can haul simultaneously.

-make sure your tether is LONG. Once the piggy is moving, momentum carries it pretty well. Why haul 4 feet at a time when you can do 30? Pigs will fly.

-like skiclimb said, pull up on the pig side of the rope. Get your jugs on it and yard on it.


(This post was edited by Durin on Mar 8, 2010, 3:48 PM)


Partner xtrmecat


Mar 9, 2010, 11:04 AM
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  I finally got around to having to use a protrax, and although we only had a couple minor issues, I recommend staying away from it with big loads. That said, with a grade V load it was sufficient, although keep it free to rotate and move, which at some belays is not really convenient or efficient.

Large pulley with bearing helps, not a must have, bushed ones in good condition work well also, diameter is key here.


Like Durin said, once the load moves, keeping it moving takes a lot less energy than getting it going again, so the more ground you can gain while in motion the better for you.

Pulling up on the line to miss piggy is also helpful, as is using a partner for counterweight. I like to involve the second in the end of a heavy haul, it seems to me to get more done with less horsepower rather than the 3 to 1. A 5 to 1 is mostly a great rescue tool, if you need it to haul, something is wrong, and technique is probably the issue, not climber weight or strength. Slab just hauls poorly, so suck it up, buttercup.

Hauling sucks, but is nescessary to do bigger big walls, trying to keep the load light, but take what you need to survive takes balance and experience, two pairs of shades, redundant anything is just too much. Select wisely. Storm gear always makes the cut though.

Practice with a heavy pig, and then do it some more, now get off the ledge and do it at a hanging belay. do it till you are tired of doing it, and then do it till it is very late. This will give you the needed muscles, technique, and insight to maybe succeed at bigger walls. Shimanilami has it right, an inch here, and a little different there can make all the difference between a monster haul, and piggy duty.

If dying isn't on the list, consider a backup to the haul, so if the trax does come apart, kind of likely it could, keep the back up tight and short. A small fall on a static line could rip a party from the wall. Nuff said. Hauling while the second is in motion is great so long as he can reach miss piggy if it gets hung up on an anything. Above it he/she can use the rope to steer, and from below, well you get the idea.

Check out far end hauling. Never done it myself, but I solo, and it could have saved me a trip or two down the line. My $0.02, which came the hard way of course.

Bob


shimanilami


Mar 9, 2010, 11:52 AM
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One valuable tip is to tether the pig with a munter-mule. Releasing the pig - especially on traversing pitches - is way easier.


Partner xtrmecat


Mar 9, 2010, 6:44 PM
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Yes, look up docking tether. Way easy to wrangle the piggy, both on and especially off of the anchor, solo or not. Thanks shimanilami, forgot that one.

Bob


rock_fencer


Mar 10, 2010, 6:39 PM
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do you do this off the haul line or a lowering out line? just read somewhere that doing such of the haul line can eat up a bit of rope if the knot slips, if its not tied snugly such that the mule is directly on the munter (i think, thats what i understood at least).


Partner xtrmecat


Mar 10, 2010, 7:43 PM
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do you do this off the haul line or a lowering out line? just read somewhere that doing such of the haul line can eat up a bit of rope if the knot slips, if its not tied snugly such that the mule is directly on the munter

Neither. I have a loop of cord, tied around the haul loops of the bag. It is around 10 foot long, making it a five foot loop. When miss piggy arrives at the hauls end, the tether goes muntered onto the anchor, and secure this munter with a mule(load releasable knot). When you lower out a little, you have 5 foot built into the docking tether. if more is needed, attach a lower out line, and when you lower off the tether, simple and controllably because of the munter, then just keep the lower out going with the attached line.

I hope this is a clear description. I'll look around for a pic or two of it in action.

Bob


majid_sabet


Mar 10, 2010, 7:57 PM
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euroford wrote:
i find the protraxion to be totally adequate. i'm sure there are better things out there, but not so much that i'm going to make it a priority.

hauling sucks, its allot of work, there isn't really any way around that. even if you have the best possible equipment and technique. but its totally doable and if you suck it up its over before you know it.

having a couple of small pulleys available is a good idea. that way if you get in trouble, you can easily convert to 3:1.

the one time i had to use a 3:1 was a low-angled blocky kind of situation where the bags were draggin. it SUCKED. the 3:1 works, but it drags our the pain 3x longer. avoid if at all possible.

that piece of sh*t protrax is one most dangerous gear any climber could have on his or her position.two near miss call on El cap in 2008-2009 and climber died on Zion because of that fuc*ing thing.

read accident report and keep yourself up to date .


Partner euroford


Mar 11, 2010, 7:51 AM
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i've read the zion report, and they didn't use the device correctly. been der dun dat on this debate over at supertaco.

petzls instructions have pictures, you don't even need to know how to read to know how to use it correctly, sadly this still isn't easy enough for some people.

the protrax is hardly the most awesomest device out there, but its simple, its easy to use, its light weight and readily available.

its not foolproof, its not perfect, its definitely not ideal if your going on a two week vertical camping trip, and like ALL climbing equipment, its definitely not safe when used incorrectly.


shimanilami


Mar 11, 2010, 8:02 AM
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Regarding the docking tether, I do almost exactly what xtrmecat does. The only difference is that I use a longer cord (~ cordelette-sized).


majid_sabet


Mar 11, 2010, 8:46 AM
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euroford wrote:
i've read the zion report, and they didn't use the device correctly. been der dun dat on this debate over at supertaco.

petzls instructions have pictures, you don't even need to know how to read to know how to use it correctly, sadly this still isn't easy enough for some people.

the protrax is hardly the most awesomest device out there, but its simple, its easy to use, its light weight and readily available.

its not foolproof, its not perfect, its definitely not ideal if your going on a two week vertical camping trip, and like ALL climbing equipment, its definitely not safe when used incorrectly.

good luck


Partner euroford


Mar 11, 2010, 9:06 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
good luck

danke!!


ptlong


Mar 11, 2010, 10:47 AM
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Why use a loop instead of a single strand for a docking tether?


(This post was edited by ptlong on Mar 12, 2010, 10:45 AM)


Partner xtrmecat


Mar 13, 2010, 6:52 AM
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  I use a loop mostly because of it is how I saw it done the first time, and never bothered to change it.

It does have advantages though. When tethered, the loop makes the attachment to the pig redundant because it passes through both the long and short haul loops. When I am bivying, I tie one strand to the long haul loop only and anchor this strand to the anchor via a load releasable knot. The slack of the loop can then lay loosely alongside the whole mess, and be used to clip in crap coming out of the pig during the ever famous belay cluster/ well you get it, just clip it here temporarily. The pig is then easily accessed because the short haul loop has no tension on it, but it is still backed up on the slack in the loop, should for some unknown reason have an issue with the other haul loop(extremely unlikely).

It also allows the tether to be stowed as a chain right on top or just inside the pig for hauls, preventing snagging on obstructions or abrasion while hauling. Not a perfect system, but it is what works for me.

Bob


alpine_monk


May 13, 2010, 11:30 AM
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I tried to haul a pig to Lay Lady Ledge one time. All the squealing attracted a bear.... damn bear ate the thing before I could get it off the ground......But a Kong block roll is the best thing out there to try. Hope you have better luck than me.


rtwilli4


Jul 2, 2010, 6:57 AM
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I usually haul loads that I can lift and clip to the anchors, but once I read the following post I started to do the "docking cord" method anyways. It just makes sense, and keeps you practicing a "system" rather than just pulling the bag up and clipping it to something.

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...forum.cgi?post=59217

I use a wall hauler because that's what we have in Thailand, but I would love to bet a Pro Trax some day.

Other than that, a 1:1 or 3:1 should be all you'll need for the pig. A 5:1 is good to know for rescue though.

Not exactly sure which way you are using your "body weight as a counter" but I like attach an ascender to the line and use it like a foot pump if you know what I mean?

I typically haul relatively light loads when I'm re-bolting, the weather is great, and I work at night anyways, so time is not really an issue for me. I have gotten faster though, and PRACTICE IS KEY for being fast and efficient.


dugl33


Jul 2, 2010, 10:55 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:

that piece of sh*t protrax is one most dangerous gear any climber could have on his or her position.two near miss call on El cap in 2008-2009 and climber died on Zion because of that fuc*ing thing.

read accident report and keep yourself up to date .

Don't forget the bottom locker. This is mandatory. Make sure the button fully engages. Tie the haul line in short, and back up the haul line below the device with a prussik to the anchor if your buddy is going to jug it.



Full documentation here...

http://www.petzl.com/...AXION%20P51500-D.pdf
Attachments: PROTRAXION_Bottom_biner.jpg (33.0 KB)


USnavy


Jul 3, 2010, 3:42 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:
euroford wrote:
i find the protraxion to be totally adequate. i'm sure there are better things out there, but not so much that i'm going to make it a priority.

hauling sucks, its allot of work, there isn't really any way around that. even if you have the best possible equipment and technique. but its totally doable and if you suck it up its over before you know it.

having a couple of small pulleys available is a good idea. that way if you get in trouble, you can easily convert to 3:1.

the one time i had to use a 3:1 was a low-angled blocky kind of situation where the bags were draggin. it SUCKED. the 3:1 works, but it drags our the pain 3x longer. avoid if at all possible.

that piece of sh*t protrax is one most dangerous gear any climber could have on his or her position.two near miss call on El cap in 2008-2009 and climber died on Zion because of that fuc*ing thing.

read accident report and keep yourself up to date .
You have no idea what your talking about. Dont act like you have actually used one on a wall, you probably haven't even used one on the ground. My partner and I used a Pro Traxion on every pitch of The Nose with about a 120 lbs. bag. Guess what, it worked out fine. We had as much as 450 lbs. on it between the two of us and the bags and it held up. The damn thing is not made out of plastic, its rated to 5,000 lbs. If you lock the Pro Traxion and put a biner through the bottom hole, you wouldn't be able to break it if you tried. None of this even matters anyway as you should never configure your haul in a manner that puts the Pro Traxion as the only thing between you and the ground. You should be tied into the belay station on a tether and you should back up the pulley system so even if the Pro Traxion fails, your still on belay.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Jul 3, 2010, 3:52 AM)


majid_sabet


Jul 3, 2010, 7:53 AM
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USnavy wrote:
majid_sabet wrote:
euroford wrote:
i find the protraxion to be totally adequate. i'm sure there are better things out there, but not so much that i'm going to make it a priority.

hauling sucks, its allot of work, there isn't really any way around that. even if you have the best possible equipment and technique. but its totally doable and if you suck it up its over before you know it.

having a couple of small pulleys available is a good idea. that way if you get in trouble, you can easily convert to 3:1.

the one time i had to use a 3:1 was a low-angled blocky kind of situation where the bags were draggin. it SUCKED. the 3:1 works, but it drags our the pain 3x longer. avoid if at all possible.

that piece of sh*t protrax is one most dangerous gear any climber could have on his or her position.two near miss call on El cap in 2008-2009 and climber died on Zion because of that fuc*ing thing.

read accident report and keep yourself up to date .
You have no idea what your talking about. Dont act like you have actually used one on a wall, you probably haven't even used one on the ground. My partner and I used a Pro Traxion on every pitch of The Nose with about a 120 lbs. bag. Guess what, it worked out fine. We had as much as 450 lbs. on it between the two of us and the bags and it held up. The damn thing is not made out of plastic, its rated to 5,000 lbs. If you lock the Pro Traxion and put a biner through the bottom hole, you wouldn't be able to break it if you tried. None of this even matters anyway as you should never configure your haul in a manner that puts the Pro Traxion as the only thing between you and the ground. You should be tied into the belay station on a tether and you should back up the pulley system so even if the Pro Traxion fails, your still on belay.

why do not you just shut up man and do not make up stories

450 lbs of haul bag

doing nose

whatever


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jul 3, 2010, 10:23 PM)


kobaz


Jul 3, 2010, 11:30 AM
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majid_sabet wrote:

why do not just shut up man and do not make up stories

450 lbs of haul bag

doing nose

whatever

I haven't done a wall yet... but I've done a lot of reading through the years. Here's my guess as to what made it up to 450 pounds.

The nose takes an average party like 4 days roundabout?... food, water, gear, and etc adds up quickly.

1 gallon of water per day, per person.. 64 pounds
2 pounds of food per day, per person 16 pounds
Rack: ~20 pounds
Ledge: ~15 pounds
Rain fly: ~5 pounds
Sleeping bags + pads : ~4 pounds
Luxury Items: ~4 pounds
SubTotal: 128 pounds

So hmm, It doesn't add up as quickly as I thought... the remainder of the gear would be:
Mystery Gear: 322 pounds

Total: 450 pounds

And the 20 pound rack is usually going to be just out and be carried by the leader... so the SubTotal is more like 108 pounds, which would make the mystery gear equal to 342 pounds.

Even with a ghetto blaster, a kitchen sink, 20 more pounds of climbing gear, 20 pounds of booze, and maybe 20 more pounds of food. That still leaves 277 pounds of mystery gear!

What the hell was usnavy carrying?


kobaz


Jul 3, 2010, 11:32 AM
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Oh wait...

After all that, maybe USNavy was considering:
120 pound hall bag
165 pound climber
165 pound climber

450 pounds total on the haul system.

That makes sense now.


csproul


Jul 3, 2010, 1:34 PM
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According to reports on Supertopo, there have indeed been some problems with the protraxion. Mostly these problems have occurred when the device was used without adequate rotational freedom, and/or with an asymmetrical carabiner. These have caused the plates to torque apart. Devices have broken, and skinny haul lines have jumped off the pulley and become wedged between the pulley and the plate. I think that using this device with really big loads may be questionable, and for sure it seems important to use symmetrical carabiners, and allow it to rotate freely by placing it on a sling. I have just started using mine and have yet to haul a heavy load, but I am certainly going to take these warnings to heart. Majid is not the first person I have heard warn about the protraxion, and in fact I have heard some pretty experienced (more than one wall) aid climbers express reservations about using it.

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