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yodadave


Mar 13, 2010, 5:43 PM
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climb x vs madrock
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Is it possible for them to both to sell identical products?
Surely one or other must hold the patents?


USnavy


Mar 13, 2010, 7:26 PM
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Re: [yodadave] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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http://docs.google.com/...UEPtxSyeExvcef8t50NA


chaingang


Mar 13, 2010, 7:40 PM
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Re: [USnavy] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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http://www.abc-of-rockclimbing.com/...ion-with-climb-x.asp


yodadave


Mar 13, 2010, 7:57 PM
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Re: [USnavy] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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if it breaches numerous patents does that mean they 're gonna get sued?


rubber_man


Mar 13, 2010, 8:39 PM
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Re: [yodadave] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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yodadave wrote:

if it breaches numerous patents does that mean they 're gonna get sued?

possibly, depends on if madrock wants to press charges.


warrenw


Mar 14, 2010, 8:10 AM
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Re: [yodadave] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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For more spicy rc.com forum reading on the topic:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...rum.cgi?post=2283848


USnavy


Mar 14, 2010, 10:02 PM
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Re: [rubber_man] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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rubber_man wrote:
yodadave wrote:

if it breaches numerous patents does that mean they 're gonna get sued?

possibly, depends on if madrock wants to press charges.
The term "press charges" most commonly refers to criminal conduct. I strongly doubt the police give a damn about this and its extremely unlikely any criminal charges would come of this. A civil lawsuit is possible though.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Mar 14, 2010, 10:02 PM)


Partner cracklover


Mar 15, 2010, 9:29 AM
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Re: [rubber_man] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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rubber_man wrote:
yodadave wrote:

if it breaches numerous patents does that mean they 're gonna get sued?

possibly, depends on if madrock wants to press charges.

In China? Bwahahahahahahahahahahha! That's a good one!

GO


caughtinside


Mar 15, 2010, 9:41 AM
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Re: [cracklover] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
rubber_man wrote:
yodadave wrote:

if it breaches numerous patents does that mean they 're gonna get sued?

possibly, depends on if madrock wants to press charges.

In China? Bwahahahahahahahahahahha! That's a good one!

GO

Well, both countries sell shoes in the US? Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to get an injunction against climb x in the US, so they couldn't sell those shoes here.


Partner cracklover


Mar 15, 2010, 10:32 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
cracklover wrote:
rubber_man wrote:
yodadave wrote:

if it breaches numerous patents does that mean they 're gonna get sued?

possibly, depends on if madrock wants to press charges.

In China? Bwahahahahahahahahahahha! That's a good one!

GO

Well, both countries sell shoes in the US? Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to get an injunction against climb x in the US, so they couldn't sell those shoes here.

Really? An injunction with whom? And define "hard". Wouldn't you have to prove both patent infringement and that one is the owner of the patent and the other isn't? Hard to do when neither company is based in the US, and both claim to be the patent owners.

GO


caughtinside


Mar 15, 2010, 10:42 AM
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Re: [cracklover] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
cracklover wrote:
rubber_man wrote:
yodadave wrote:

if it breaches numerous patents does that mean they 're gonna get sued?

possibly, depends on if madrock wants to press charges.

In China? Bwahahahahahahahahahahha! That's a good one!

GO

Well, both countries sell shoes in the US? Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to get an injunction against climb x in the US, so they couldn't sell those shoes here.

Really? An injunction with whom? And define "hard". Wouldn't you have to prove both patent infringement and that one is the owner of the patent and the other isn't? Hard to do when neither company is based in the US, and both claim to be the patent owners.

GO

My mistake. You are correct, this sort of business chicanery is clearly outside the scope of US law. I expect to see identical Mad Rock and Climb X shoes coming soon to a store near you.


pfwein


Mar 15, 2010, 11:01 AM
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Re: [cracklover] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
cracklover wrote:
rubber_man wrote:
yodadave wrote:

if it breaches numerous patents does that mean they 're gonna get sued?

possibly, depends on if madrock wants to press charges.

In China? Bwahahahahahahahahahahha! That's a good one!

GO

Well, both countries sell shoes in the US? Doesn't seem like it would be that hard to get an injunction against climb x in the US, so they couldn't sell those shoes here.

Really? An injunction with whom? And define "hard". Wouldn't you have to prove both patent infringement and that one is the owner of the patent and the other isn't? Hard to do when neither company is based in the US, and both claim to be the patent owners.

GO

I would doubt that any of the relevant shoes are protected by patents. While it's possible for a utility patent to cover an inventive aspect of a shoe or a design patent to cover its appearance, a patent is only granted after filing an application with the USPTO and it being examined and approved. It can a relatively time consuming and expensive process, and it only protects inventive aspects. Cheap, knock-off type products aren't usually protected by patents.

If somehow any of the shoes are protected by the patents, the presumptive owner of the patent is the inventor (human being, not company). If there's a written assignment from the inventor, then the assignee is the owner. While there can be ownership disputes, being outside of the US doesn't raise any issues.

Copyright law does not generally protect functional items such as shoes.

There's an exception to every rule, and these are just general comments for anyone who may be interested in the intellectual property law aspects of this.


billcoe_


Mar 15, 2010, 12:43 PM
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Re: [rubber_man] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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rubber_man wrote:
if it breaches numerous patents does that mean they 're gonna get sued?
In reply to:
possibly, depends on if madrock wants to press charges.

That's should be IF ANY patents are breached. Mad Rock basically appeared to me to be copy's of others work. What shoe patents does Mad Rock hold that they think are being violated? I wonder if there is room for both of these, or, if in attacking the others markets, they both self destruct....should be interesting to look back in 5 years and see if either of them is still standing.


madrockclimbing


Mar 15, 2010, 12:45 PM
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Re: [billcoe_] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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PRESS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Mad Rock Sheds Some Weight and Passes Savings on to Customers

Santa Fe Springs, CA February 5, 2010: Mad Rock is pleased to announce Kenny Suh, who has been with Mad Rock since 2007, as head of the company’s global sales and marketing team. Joseph Garland, a contracted sales rep with Mad Rock, announced his departure early January. Mad Rock’s sole owner and president Young Chu assures his customers that operations will resume as normal. “Our in-house staff as well as the US and International sales team is excited about the changes and look forward to an even better 2010.”

Factory

Mad Rock Climbing is happy to announce that the move from China to Vietnam was a success. “Even though the transition was difficult, it was a necessary move in the face of overwhelming price increases in China. We will be able to pass on savings to the dealers and consumers while maintaining quality and innovation, which has been the cornerstone of Mad Rock’s philosophy.”

Mad Rock Climbing is issuing a customer and team athlete alert for Climb X products.

Climb X products are imitation made with the intention to deceive the consumer into believing it to be genuine Mad Rock products. Mad Rock and its parent company Nelson Sports Inc. has NO affiliation with Climb X or its products, which violates numerous patent and copyright laws. We encourage any customers who have been approached by Climb X to contact us immediately.

Here's a link to very reliable news article written on SNews.com, an outdoor industry new source. You have to sign in, but it's free.

https://www.snewsnet.com/SNEWSFreebie/MadRockFriend.html


(This post was edited by madrockclimbing on Mar 15, 2010, 12:48 PM)


billcoe_


Mar 15, 2010, 12:56 PM
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Re: [madrockclimbing] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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What savings? I just went to your site and it looks like you're still selling shoes that cost $5.00 or so to make, for $80-$100.


(This post was edited by billcoe_ on Mar 15, 2010, 12:56 PM)


Adk


Mar 15, 2010, 12:58 PM
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Re: [madrockclimbing] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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madrockclimbing wrote:

Climb X products are imitation made with the intention to deceive the consumer into believing it to be genuine Mad Rock products. We encourage any customers who have been approached by Climb X to contact us immediately.

Well, I'll know they are not Mad Rock and if they contact me to climb on their product before you do then they will have the upper hand in NY. Shocked
Interested in Pimp'in your product here?Cool


madrockclimbing


Mar 15, 2010, 1:45 PM
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Re: [madrockclimbing] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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madrockclimbing wrote:
PRESS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Mad Rock Sheds Some Weight and Passes Savings on to Customers

Santa Fe Springs, CA February 5, 2010: Mad Rock is pleased to announce Kenny Suh, who has been with Mad Rock since 2007, as head of the company’s global sales and marketing team. Joseph Garland, a contracted sales rep with Mad Rock, announced his departure early January. Mad Rock’s sole owner and president Young Chu assures his customers that operations will resume as normal. “Our in-house staff as well as the US and International sales team is excited about the changes and look forward to an even better 2010.”

Factory

Mad Rock Climbing is happy to announce that the move from China to Vietnam was a success. “Even though the transition was difficult, it was a necessary move in the face of overwhelming price increases in China. We will be able to pass on savings to the dealers and consumers while maintaining quality and innovation, which has been the cornerstone of Mad Rock’s philosophy.”

Mad Rock Climbing is issuing a customer and team athlete alert for Climb X products.

Climb X products are imitation made with the intention to deceive the consumer into believing it to be genuine Mad Rock products. Mad Rock and its parent company Nelson Sports Inc. has NO affiliation with Climb X or its products, which violates numerous patent and copyright laws. We encourage any customers who have been approached by Climb X to contact us immediately.

Here's a link to very reliable news article written on SNews.com, an outdoor industry new source. You have to sign in, but it's free.

https://www.snewsnet.com/SNEWSFreebie/MadRockFriend.html

As for the patent violations,



Young Chu is the holder of four US patents as an inventor, three that pertain to climbing and with many more that are pending.



Concave sole for climbing shoes

3D Hooking heel for climbing shoes

Safety Buckle


jbro_135


Mar 15, 2010, 1:57 PM
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Re: [madrockclimbing] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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congratulations on your new vietnamese sweatshop, i am pleased to hear that no chinese workers will be making decent wages


Partner angry


Mar 15, 2010, 5:53 PM
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Re: [madrockclimbing] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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So basically we have two people arguing about whose shit smells the most like roses when in fact, the nearby roses aren't all that hard to get.

Fuck Madrock.

Fuck Climb X.


shoo


Mar 15, 2010, 6:09 PM
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Re: [angry] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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angry wrote:
So basically we have two people arguing about whose shit smells the most like roses when in fact, the nearby roses aren't all that hard to get.

Fuck Madrock.

Fuck Climb X.

+1


curt


Mar 15, 2010, 7:29 PM
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Re: [shoo] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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I actually sort of like MadRock--or whichever one of these entities used to be the real MadRock. Their stuff was OK for its price point--and they did keep other manufacturers honest with regard to pricing. Conversely, there is something about Karma that is also intrinsically appealing to me. Climb X fucking over MadRock who previously fucked over 5.10 and all of that.

Curt


pfwein


Mar 15, 2010, 7:56 PM
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Re: [madrockclimbing] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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madrockclimbing wrote:
madrockclimbing wrote:
PRESS RELEASE
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Mad Rock Sheds Some Weight and Passes Savings on to Customers

Santa Fe Springs, CA February 5, 2010: Mad Rock is pleased to announce Kenny Suh, who has been with Mad Rock since 2007, as head of the company’s global sales and marketing team. Joseph Garland, a contracted sales rep with Mad Rock, announced his departure early January. Mad Rock’s sole owner and president Young Chu assures his customers that operations will resume as normal. “Our in-house staff as well as the US and International sales team is excited about the changes and look forward to an even better 2010.”

Factory

Mad Rock Climbing is happy to announce that the move from China to Vietnam was a success. “Even though the transition was difficult, it was a necessary move in the face of overwhelming price increases in China. We will be able to pass on savings to the dealers and consumers while maintaining quality and innovation, which has been the cornerstone of Mad Rock’s philosophy.”

Mad Rock Climbing is issuing a customer and team athlete alert for Climb X products.

Climb X products are imitation made with the intention to deceive the consumer into believing it to be genuine Mad Rock products. Mad Rock and its parent company Nelson Sports Inc. has NO affiliation with Climb X or its products, which violates numerous patent and copyright laws. We encourage any customers who have been approached by Climb X to contact us immediately.

Here's a link to very reliable news article written on SNews.com, an outdoor industry new source. You have to sign in, but it's free.

https://www.snewsnet.com/SNEWSFreebie/MadRockFriend.html

As for the patent violations,



Young Chu is the holder of four US patents as an inventor, three that pertain to climbing and with many more that are pending.



Concave sole for climbing shoes

3D Hooking heel for climbing shoes

Safety Buckle

OK, my guess that Madrock doesn't own patents was wrong. Thanks for clearing that up. (This of course doesn't mean that Climb X is infringing those patents--that's a different issue.)

For all you Madrock haters, its ownership of patents doesn't prove anything, but it does show that Madrock took the time and expense to convince a patent examiner that it made novel and inventive contributions to climbing technology, and it's not consistent with the view that all Madrock did was rip off other companies.

Good luck to MadRock!

(And I hope the MadRock biners I bought don't fall apart.)


gogo


Mar 16, 2010, 7:31 AM
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Re: [pfwein] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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Man, i haven't posted to RC.com in a long time, but having an extra few minutes this morning and looking at this thread, kinda has me taking this bait.

Why is there so much anger against Mad Rock on this site? It's weird, it's like a rockclimbing.com specific bias for certain companies over other ones.

I've climbed in a decent amount of shoes, and honestly I've never found a shoe that in-and-of-itself makes me a better or worse climber. I've seen many, many climbers make excuses for themselves based on the shoes - oftentimes I hear a lot of people complain about shoe quality and durability, but never question their footwork.

Wouldn't you assume that if all Mad Rock shoes were low-quality, then no strong climbers would use them? Yet many of the top 10 finishers at ABS and SCS wear them - Sacha DeJulian won SCS nationals this year in Mad Rocks.

I feel the same sentiment gets thrown at Boreal for their rubber - isn't it weird that Andrada, Marin, and a lot of other 5.15 climbers shut down projects in Boreal? I mean, if they are climbing at the level to where they are repeatedly shown in magazines and literally do climb full-time, they would have absolute pick of shoe sponsorship. If their company was really not producing decent products, what reason would there be to stay?

And as a separate point - climbing shoes are expensive. Mad Rock puts out a lot of shoes at a decently low price, yet can climb well - there is no reason that one couldn't climb 5.13 in basic Flashes. Do people think all climbers should start out by buying Miuras? Would that make people better climbers, or just promote this strange climbing-shoe-elitism?


taydude


Mar 16, 2010, 8:12 AM
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gogo wrote:
Man, i haven't posted to RC.com in a long time, but having an extra few minutes this morning and looking at this thread, kinda has me taking this bait.

Why is there so much anger against Mad Rock on this site? It's weird, it's like a rockclimbing.com specific bias for certain companies over other ones.

I've climbed in a decent amount of shoes, and honestly I've never found a shoe that in-and-of-itself makes me a better or worse climber. I've seen many, many climbers make excuses for themselves based on the shoes - oftentimes I hear a lot of people complain about shoe quality and durability, but never question their footwork.

Wouldn't you assume that if all Mad Rock shoes were low-quality, then no strong climbers would use them? Yet many of the top 10 finishers at ABS and SCS wear them - Sacha DeJulian won SCS nationals this year in Mad Rocks.

I feel the same sentiment gets thrown at Boreal for their rubber - isn't it weird that Andrada, Marin, and a lot of other 5.15 climbers shut down projects in Boreal? I mean, if they are climbing at the level to where they are repeatedly shown in magazines and literally do climb full-time, they would have absolute pick of shoe sponsorship. If their company was really not producing decent products, what reason would there be to stay?

And as a separate point - climbing shoes are expensive. Mad Rock puts out a lot of shoes at a decently low price, yet can climb well - there is no reason that one couldn't climb 5.13 in basic Flashes. Do people think all climbers should start out by buying Miuras? Would that make people better climbers, or just promote this strange climbing-shoe-elitism?

Dude if someone is going to offer you free unlimited shoes do you care about the rubber quality? The top guys in the sport don't need certain shoes to climb hard. Sharma sent Dreamcatcher in moccasyms. Definitely not the ideal shoe to wear on a route requiring so much heel hooking. They're going to wear the shoes of the company offering them the most money/best deal. That being said, mad rocks suck. I've watched so many people destroy their mad rocks in weeks. I don't care about their rubber since the shoes themselves fall apart so fast. You get what you pay for though.


qwert


Mar 16, 2010, 9:00 AM
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Re: [taydude] climb x vs madrock [In reply to]
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Actually there are rumors that many of the top athletes resole their sponsor issued shoes with "good" nonsponsored rubber ...

And to not be completely off topic:
Tow of my friends have madrock shoes (among others).
Both use those shoes intensively and often and they hold up quite well (apart from the velcros). Actually the madrocks are the shoes they have used the longest so far ...
so there seem to be some madrocks that are holding up very well.
So if they fit (most important thing anyways!) and you are ok with them manufacturing in china or vietnam or wherever, then go for it.

If you are not ok with the last part however, be carefull! they are not the only ones producing in china. Even a lot of the italians have production lines in china for their cheaper stuff.

qwert

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