|
belikerk
Mar 14, 2010, 6:29 AM
Post #1 of 27
(13483 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2010
Posts: 9
|
I recently went climbing at Smith Rocks and lead my first climbs, a 5.8, 5.9, and two 5.10's. On my first 5.10 I was nearly to the top but fell, my first fall infact. I started again where I fell and finished the route. Is this still an onsight flash, if not what would I call it?
|
|
|
|
|
uni_jim
Mar 14, 2010, 6:57 AM
Post #2 of 27
(13468 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 27, 2008
Posts: 429
|
Hang dog.
|
|
|
|
|
jager824
Mar 14, 2010, 6:58 AM
Post #3 of 27
(13468 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2008
Posts: 19
|
if you fell... you can't really call it an onsight, because you had to give it 2 tries.
An onsight is like a final exam. You only get one chance to get the grade. If you fail, or in this case fall, you must re-take the course, but you'll get a DIFFERENT test; this is where my analogy fails, you can re-climb the route, but it's exactly the same so it wouldn't be an onsight it would have given you an opportunity to look over the moves and replay what went wrong and find the mistakes. Once you fall you've failed the test and should "downgrade" your ascent style to "hang-dog" unless you lower off and try again, at that point you could call it red/pink-point. But you only call it an onsight for the very first attempt at a route without falling.
If I were in your situation I'd call it a hang-dog and lower off and go back up for the red-point. (this is how I've learned to handle the vernacular and labeling of my ascents. Some may find points to argue, but this is the general consensus I've found between fellow climbers)
Glad to hear your first fall went well. Keep it up!
|
|
|
|
|
shimanilami
Mar 14, 2010, 7:01 AM
Post #4 of 27
(13467 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 24, 2006
Posts: 2043
|
Failure.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Mar 14, 2010, 3:01 PM
Post #6 of 27
(13382 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
belikerk wrote: I recently went climbing at Smith Rocks and lead my first climbs, a 5.8, 5.9, and two 5.10's. On my first 5.10 I was nearly to the top but fell, my first fall infact. I started again where I fell and finished the route. Is this still an onsight flash, if not what would I call it?
Call it whatever you like... except onsight, redpoint or pinkpoint. 
It looks like the RC.com dictionary is incorrect about a few of those terms. For example, it doesn't mention in the redpoint definition that the term is reserved for 2nd and beyond attempts. The hierarchy goes a little something like this:
Onsight flash: (most times referred to as simply an onsight) A clean ascent (meaning no falls or otherwise weighting the rope) on the first try with no prior knowledge of the climb. In trad climbing, exceptions are sometimes made for climbing into the bottom to place a first piece of protection, then downclimbing to the ground to rest a bit. Purists, however, might tell you that automatically downgrades the ascent to a redpoint. Hell, a purist might even tell you that if you read a guidebook description or knew the grade of the climb in advance, you cannot claim an onsight.
Beta flash: (most times referred to simply as a flash) A clean ascent (meaning no falls or otherwise weighting the rope) on the first try, but prior knowledge is allowed. Watching somebody climb it first, getting beta from somebody who climbed it and even running beta are all allowed.
Redpoint: A clean ascent (meaning no falls or otherwise weighting the rope) on any try after the first. Some caveats exist, however. If you're climbing trad, then "redpoint" only applies if you placed protection on lead. If not, it's a pinkpoint. The term pinkpoint does not apply at all to sport climbing.
Pinkpoint: In trad climbing, a clean ascent (meaning no falls or otherwise weighting the rope) on any try after the first, but with protection pre placed.
In modern American climbing parlance, all of the above are "sends," as in you sent the climb in question. What you did, i.e., falling, resting, then continuing, counts as none of the above, I'm afraid. But hey, that doesn't mean it wasn't a useful and worthwhile endeavor, right?
There may be some gray areas in the above. There's a recent thread about somebody climbing most of an incredibly hard climb, then downclimbing all of it, and then returning later to finish, all with no falls. He's calling it an onsight. Personally, I don't agree, but I appreciate that he was honest about the details. Besides, what he did is arguably more impressive than an onsight! Maybe we need a new term entirely. Another example, I still claim the onsight of a route on which I fell. However, I landed on a small ledge and never weighted the rope.
|
|
|
|
|
olderic
Mar 14, 2010, 3:28 PM
Post #7 of 27
(13363 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 17, 2003
Posts: 1539
|
Almost.
redpoint applies to the initial attempt too. A redpoint is just a send - no weighting of the gear. 1st time or 101st time. All flashes and on-sights are redpoints too.
pink pointing most certainly applies to sport climbing no matter what the current fashionistas try and tell you. All these terms originated with sport climbing including the word "trad". Used to be that you either climbed a route first go or it was "tainted". I know most will say that is ancient history and not applicable today but at least one should be aware
|
|
|
|
|
clc
Mar 14, 2010, 7:02 PM
Post #9 of 27
(13290 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 495
|
belikerk wrote: I recently went climbing at Smith Rocks and lead my first climbs, a 5.8, 5.9, and two 5.10's. On my first 5.10 I was nearly to the top but fell, my first fall infact. I started again where I fell and finished the route. Is this still an onsight flash, if not what would I call it?
You can call it your first try. You worked the route. Now go back and get the Redpoint.
|
|
|
|
|
yodadave
Mar 14, 2010, 7:07 PM
Post #10 of 27
(13282 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 11, 2008
Posts: 510
|
olderic wrote: pink pointing most certainly applies to sport climbing no matter what the current fashionistas try and tell you.
I second the motion.
There is no way you can convince me that clipping preplaced draws is the same style as placing them.
|
|
|
|
|
floater
Mar 14, 2010, 7:13 PM
Post #11 of 27
(13280 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 8, 2003
Posts: 37
|
Matey.... I think the world of climbing should be a simpler place. You either led it or top-roped it. If you led it without any falls or resting on the rope you did it "clean" otherwise you just led it.
Worrying about all these other terms is just nonsense. None of the top climbers on-sight their hardest projects. I have to wonder why there is all these nonsense terms about how you climbed it and how much info you had on it. Just enjoy the climb...do not let those terms dominate your thinking.
|
|
|
|
|
jager824
Mar 14, 2010, 10:41 PM
Post #13 of 27
(13205 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 1, 2008
Posts: 19
|
floater wrote: Worrying about all these other terms is just nonsense. None of the top climbers on-sight their hardest projects. I have to wonder why there is all these nonsense terms about how you climbed it and how much info you had on it. Just enjoy the climb...do not let those terms dominate your thinking.
No, they aren't onsighting their projects... that's part of the definition of a project. But there are very difficult routes being onsighted; into the 13 and 14 range.... and those accomplishments are not shunned by anyone. Those are amazing accomplishments which can only be distinguished by such terminology such as: onsight, redpoint... etc.
I agree that these terms should not dominate a climbers thinking, but they are helpful in defining the manor in which a personal accomplishment was made.
(This post was edited by jager824 on Mar 14, 2010, 10:42 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
edge
Mar 15, 2010, 12:02 AM
Post #14 of 27
(13169 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 9120
|
Jeebus H. Christo, with this much spam going on, I recommend the term, "Oinkpoint."
|
|
|
|
|
Potts875
Mar 15, 2010, 12:13 AM
Post #15 of 27
(13165 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 7, 2009
Posts: 52
|
yodadave wrote: I second the motion. There is no way you can convince me that clipping preplaced draws is the same style as placing them.
Although I get what you're saying Dave, I'd have to say I've never seen anyone clean draws prior to a redpoint attempt. That just seems like it's splitting hairs. To each his own though.
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Mar 15, 2010, 12:35 AM
Post #16 of 27
(13149 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
belikerk wrote: I recently went climbing at Smith Rocks and lead my first climbs, a 5.8, 5.9, and two 5.10's. On my first 5.10 I was nearly to the top but fell, my first fall infact. I started again where I fell and finished the route. Is this still an onsight flash, if not what would I call it?
5.10 A0.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
clc
Mar 15, 2010, 12:59 AM
Post #17 of 27
(13133 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 12, 2005
Posts: 495
|
I think this could be called a brown point. I jokingly call a top rope with no falls on your first try a brown point
|
|
|
|
|
davidnn5
Mar 15, 2010, 1:09 AM
Post #18 of 27
(13127 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 8, 2009
Posts: 348
|
Isnt a brown point what you do in your pants when you take a huge whipper and all of your pieces bar the last one zipper?
|
|
|
|
|
belikerk
Mar 15, 2010, 3:00 AM
Post #19 of 27
(13089 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 12, 2010
Posts: 9
|
Thanks for the info. There are too many terms haha.
|
|
|
|
|
shu2kill
Mar 15, 2010, 10:24 PM
Post #20 of 27
(12985 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2008
Posts: 352
|
j_ung wrote: Redpoint: A clean ascent (meaning no falls or otherwise weighting the rope) on any try after the first. Some caveats exist, however. If you're climbing trad, then "redpoint" only applies if you placed protection on lead. If not, it's a pinkpoint. The term pinkpoint does not apply at all to sport climbing. Pinkpoint: In trad climbing, a clean ascent (meaning no falls or otherwise weighting the rope) on any try after the first, but with protection pre placed.
in sport, wouldnt a redpoint be when you lead and place the draws, and a pink point when you lead with preplaced draws?? so, most, if not all of the high grade climbs made by the best climbers, would be pink points??
|
|
|
|
|
yokese
Mar 15, 2010, 10:36 PM
Post #21 of 27
(12976 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jan 18, 2006
Posts: 672
|
shu2kill wrote: in sport, wouldnt a redpoint be when you lead and place the draws, and a pink point when you lead with preplaced draws?? so, most, if not all of the high grade climbs made by the best climbers, would be pink points??
That's the terminology I learned ~18 years ago. It seems to be outdated, though.
|
|
|
|
|
j_ung
Mar 16, 2010, 1:08 AM
Post #22 of 27
(12923 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 21, 2003
Posts: 18690
|
shu2kill wrote: j_ung wrote: Redpoint: A clean ascent (meaning no falls or otherwise weighting the rope) on any try after the first. Some caveats exist, however. If you're climbing trad, then "redpoint" only applies if you placed protection on lead. If not, it's a pinkpoint. The term pinkpoint does not apply at all to sport climbing. Pinkpoint: In trad climbing, a clean ascent (meaning no falls or otherwise weighting the rope) on any try after the first, but with protection pre placed. in sport, wouldnt...
No.
And for the record, I'm not taking a side one way or another. I'm just stating that the term pinkpoint is irrelevant not currently being used by the vast majority of modern American sport climbers.
Edit: corrected for clarity.
(This post was edited by j_ung on Mar 16, 2010, 1:10 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
shu2kill
Mar 16, 2010, 2:08 PM
Post #23 of 27
(12852 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2008
Posts: 352
|
j_ung wrote: shu2kill wrote: j_ung wrote: Redpoint: A clean ascent (meaning no falls or otherwise weighting the rope) on any try after the first. Some caveats exist, however. If you're climbing trad, then "redpoint" only applies if you placed protection on lead. If not, it's a pinkpoint. The term pinkpoint does not apply at all to sport climbing. Pinkpoint: In trad climbing, a clean ascent (meaning no falls or otherwise weighting the rope) on any try after the first, but with protection pre placed. in sport, wouldnt... No. And for the record, I'm not taking a side one way or another. I'm just stating that the term pinkpoint is irrelevant not currently being used by the vast majority of modern American sport climbers. Edit: corrected for clarity.
thanx. i was under the impression that it was as i described. but as you mention, the term pinkpoint is rarely heard of. i only do sport, not trad. so i dont know if the trad people still use it....
|
|
|
|
|
swoopee
Mar 16, 2010, 2:37 PM
Post #24 of 27
(12833 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 17, 2008
Posts: 560
|
davidnn5 wrote: Isnt a brown point what you do in your pants when you take a huge whipper and all of your pieces bar the last one zipper?
Or any time you climb runout slab?
|
|
|
|
|
davidnn5
Mar 16, 2010, 7:17 PM
Post #25 of 27
(12779 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 8, 2009
Posts: 348
|
swoopee wrote: davidnn5 wrote: Isnt a brown point what you do in your pants when you take a huge whipper and all of your pieces bar the last one zipper? Or any time you climb runout slab?
Which is all the time where I live... 
Half of the routes here have descriptions like "no pro available, just solo it" ... on 5.10+ routes. I aint no dang Alex Honnold!
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
