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davidnn5
Mar 23, 2010, 12:47 AM
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Kachoong
You had me until you put pounds into the list. Fight the madness! Down with imperial measures!
Also, you didn't have barbecues or beer in the list. Surely that's a mistake.
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TarHeelEMT
Mar 24, 2010, 5:39 AM
Post #27 of 55
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cracklover wrote: bhp wrote: I'm quite a bit heavier than my climbing partner, so when I'm leading he'll tie into a tree or something with his haul loop, so he doesn't get yanked into the wall during a fall. It allows a more natural stance than anchoring to something behind you with the belay loop.
Wait 'til he has to catch a hard lead fall and cracks three ribs. Then he'll see that a "more natural stance" is a really stupid reason to misuse his harness. How about this crazy idea: If the anchor is a ways behind you, stand slightly sideways, with the anchor rope running down over one hip/thigh? Or if the anchor is nearly below you, run the anchor strand down between your feet. GO
How does this lead to broken ribs? I'm having a hard time picturing being secured to a tree via haul loop could end that way. Has this happened to you?
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cracklover
Mar 24, 2010, 4:48 PM
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TarHeelEMT wrote: cracklover wrote: bhp wrote: I'm quite a bit heavier than my climbing partner, so when I'm leading he'll tie into a tree or something with his haul loop, so he doesn't get yanked into the wall during a fall. It allows a more natural stance than anchoring to something behind you with the belay loop.
Wait 'til he has to catch a hard lead fall and cracks three ribs. Then he'll see that a "more natural stance" is a really stupid reason to misuse his harness. How about this crazy idea: If the anchor is a ways behind you, stand slightly sideways, with the anchor rope running down over one hip/thigh? Or if the anchor is nearly below you, run the anchor strand down between your feet. GO How does this lead to broken ribs? I'm having a hard time picturing being secured to a tree via haul loop could end that way. Has this happened to you?
Hasn't happened to me, no. But I have had friends crack ribs (it takes surprisingly little) and I know what happens when you secure a harness from behind.
Picture this: rope or sling to tree behind you from haul loop is tight, and you catch a hard lead fall. What happens?
You get a a few kN of force on the front of your harness pulling forward and up. Since the tree and sling behind you can't budge, you have an equal amount of force from behind you. Now your harness is trying to go from an oval with you in the middle to a straight line, and the only thing that can give is - you (humans are pretty squishy compared to the gear).
Make sense?
GO
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cracklover
Mar 24, 2010, 4:52 PM
Post #29 of 55
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Just to be clear about the alternative (which is actually the standard): Both the anchor and the lead line are secured to your belay loop. Then you stand somewhat sideways, and a hard fall simply pulls your belay loop in two directions. This will not hurt at all!
GO
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TarHeelEMT
Mar 24, 2010, 5:34 PM
Post #30 of 55
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cracklover wrote: TarHeelEMT wrote: cracklover wrote: bhp wrote: I'm quite a bit heavier than my climbing partner, so when I'm leading he'll tie into a tree or something with his haul loop, so he doesn't get yanked into the wall during a fall. It allows a more natural stance than anchoring to something behind you with the belay loop.
Wait 'til he has to catch a hard lead fall and cracks three ribs. Then he'll see that a "more natural stance" is a really stupid reason to misuse his harness. How about this crazy idea: If the anchor is a ways behind you, stand slightly sideways, with the anchor rope running down over one hip/thigh? Or if the anchor is nearly below you, run the anchor strand down between your feet. GO How does this lead to broken ribs? I'm having a hard time picturing being secured to a tree via haul loop could end that way. Has this happened to you? Hasn't happened to me, no. But I have had friends crack ribs (it takes surprisingly little) and I know what happens when you secure a harness from behind. Picture this: rope or sling to tree behind you from haul loop is tight, and you catch a hard lead fall. What happens? You get a a few kN of force on the front of your harness pulling forward and up. Since the tree and sling behind you can't budge, you have an equal amount of force from behind you. Now your harness is trying to go from an oval with you in the middle to a straight line, and the only thing that can give is - you (humans are pretty squishy compared to the gear). Make sense? GO
That much all makes sense, and I can't imagine it's a comfortable situation to be in. I've seen lots of people clipping in to the haul loop for this purpose, but never seen a lead fall in this scenario, so the degree of suffering is something of an abstraction to me.
Mostly I was curious about the specifics of the ribs being a site of serious injury in this situation. I was thinking abdominal injury would be all - the ribs seem a little high.
(This post was edited by TarHeelEMT on Mar 24, 2010, 5:36 PM)
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petsfed
Mar 24, 2010, 6:31 PM
Post #31 of 55
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The strain on the muscles will do it. Corsets still crack ribs even though they are meant to suck in around the fleshy part.
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harpo_the_climber
Mar 26, 2010, 3:59 AM
Post #33 of 55
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I checked with Arcteryx. On my X-350a I have a plastic d ring instead of a haul loop. They don't even reccomend bringing up a rope clipped to it.
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c_kryll
May 13, 2010, 1:03 PM
Post #34 of 55
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I work in the Challenge Course Industry and there is a High Rope activity called the 'Swing Shot' that utilizes the rear haul loop. Essentially the participant is attached to the belay loop in front to a suspended vertical cable, then the pull line/release is attached at the back of their harness. They are then hauled into the air in an arc and released, creating a giant swing. Harness manufactures cater to more then just Rock Climbers...;)
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btg
May 13, 2010, 1:30 PM
Post #35 of 55
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Only time I ever saw someone anchor in using their haul loop their leader took a fall and crotched himself on the rope (anchor wasn't exactly positioned right). Needless to say I popped off my route and laughed liked I used to when watching America's Funniest Home Videos.
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ClimbClimb
May 16, 2010, 7:55 PM
Post #36 of 55
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c_kryll wrote: I work in the Challenge Course Industry and there is a High Rope activity called the 'Swing Shot' that utilizes the rear haul loop. Essentially the participant is attached to the belay loop in front to a suspended vertical cable, then the pull line/ release is attached at the back of their harness. They are then hauled into the air in an arc and released, creating a giant swing. Harness manufactures cater to more then just Rock Climbers...;)
I knew it. Every time there's some weird feature on a piece of climbing gear, it turns out it's there for some bizarre sexual purpose. (By the way, this explains a lot about GriGris).
Oh, and, your post is worthless without pics.
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snoboy
May 17, 2010, 2:20 AM
Post #37 of 55
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I'd like to see a video demonstration of how to escape a loaded belay while anchored in to the back of your harness, and belaying off the front. :D
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bill413
May 17, 2010, 1:30 PM
Post #38 of 55
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snoboy wrote: I'd like to see a video demonstration of how to escape a loaded belay while anchored in to the back of your harness, and belaying off the front. :D
It's doable. Practice tying your prussiks one-handed.
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patto
May 17, 2010, 2:19 PM
Post #39 of 55
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bill413 wrote: snoboy wrote: I'd like to see a video demonstration of how to escape a loaded belay while anchored in to the back of your harness, and belaying off the front. :D It's doable. Practice tying your prussiks one-handed.
Why would you need to tie prussike with only one hand when you have two hands?
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bill413
May 17, 2010, 2:21 PM
Post #40 of 55
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patto wrote: bill413 wrote: snoboy wrote: I'd like to see a video demonstration of how to escape a loaded belay while anchored in to the back of your harness, and belaying off the front. :D It's doable. Practice tying your prussiks one-handed. Why would you need to tie prussike with only one hand when you have two hands?
'Cause it's more awkward to use 2 to tie the prussik on the anchor strand behind you than doing it one handed.
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patto
May 17, 2010, 3:02 PM
Post #41 of 55
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bill413 wrote: patto wrote: bill413 wrote: snoboy wrote: I'd like to see a video demonstration of how to escape a loaded belay while anchored in to the back of your harness, and belaying off the front. :D It's doable. Practice tying your prussiks one-handed. Why would you need to tie prussike with only one hand when you have two hands? 'Cause it's more awkward to use 2 to tie the prussik on the anchor strand behind you than doing it one handed.
While there are a thousand ways to skin this cat what your suggesting doesn't really come in as one of the easy and obvious ways.
1. Secure belay device to go hands free. (tie backup)
2. Tighten prussik to climber side rope, and attach to anchor.
3. Release belay device and let slack out until anchor is weighted.
4. Remove belay and escape!
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bill413
May 17, 2010, 3:11 PM
Post #42 of 55
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patto wrote: bill413 wrote: patto wrote: bill413 wrote: snoboy wrote: I'd like to see a video demonstration of how to escape a loaded belay while anchored in to the back of your harness, and belaying off the front. :D It's doable. Practice tying your prussiks one-handed. Why would you need to tie prussike with only one hand when you have two hands? 'Cause it's more awkward to use 2 to tie the prussik on the anchor strand behind you than doing it one handed. While there are a thousand ways to skin this cat what your suggesting doesn't really come in as one of the easy and obvious ways. 1. Secure belay device to go hands free. (tie backup) 2. Tighten prussik to climber side rope, and attach to anchor. 3. Release belay device and let slack out until anchor is weighted. 4. Remove belay and escape!
It's the "attach to anchor" part that has you working behind your back.
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billcoe_
May 17, 2010, 9:44 PM
Post #43 of 55
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gbclimber wrote: I've been climbing for several years now, and I still don't know what the purpose for having a 15kn rated haul loop is for. The only thing I use mine for his for bringing up a second rope, but it's never weighted or anything while I'm climbing....so just curious, what's it for?
Click that link and see if this furthers your understanding of that question. Understand that the 3 climbers involved had well over 100 year of climbing experience between them.
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hafilax
May 17, 2010, 10:45 PM
Post #44 of 55
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billcoe_ wrote: gbclimber wrote: I've been climbing for several years now, and I still don't know what the purpose for having a 15kn rated haul loop is for. The only thing I use mine for his for bringing up a second rope, but it's never weighted or anything while I'm climbing....so just curious, what's it for? Click that link and see if this furthers your understanding of that question. Understand that the 3 climbers involved had well over 100 year of climbing experience between them. 
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ClimbClimb
May 18, 2010, 8:00 PM
Post #45 of 55
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billcoe_ wrote: http://tinyurl.com/2dek8wf Click that link and see if this furthers your understanding of that question. Understand that the 3 climbers involved had well over 100 year of climbing experience between them.
It doesn't. What does "haul loop" vs. "belay loop" anchor tie-in have to do with this terrible incident from last year? EIther you're tied in when lowering or you're not.
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csproul
May 18, 2010, 8:25 PM
Post #46 of 55
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He and others have been saved by having the trail rope tied into a full strength haul loop when all else has failed. Yes, they all should have been tied in by other means. But when the primary rope didn't save them (or wasn't being properly used), it was the fact that the trailing rope was attached to a full strength haul loop that saved their ass. In such a circumstance, if the trailing rope had been attached to a gear loop or other non-rated loop, they would have died. Al's accident was not the only one in which I have heard this happen. I don't use the haul line to anchor with, bu when I trail a rope, I make sure it is attached to something that can take a fall.
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tradmania
May 19, 2010, 12:06 AM
Post #47 of 55
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As I interpret it, this is not an argument for full strength haul-loops, it is a justification after the fact. I fail to see anything in the accident report that defends the use of full strength haul-loops, or promotes their necessity. Yes it saved him, but human error was the cause of the accident. Or have I just missed something here?
Background info: 90% of my climbing (in Australia and the UK) has always been on half-ropes. I have only used a tag-line once in 10 years of climbing.
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csproul
May 19, 2010, 1:06 AM
Post #48 of 55
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Argument/justification...you can call it whatever you want, it's just semantics. Regardless of the cause of the accident(s), the fact remains that climbers lives have been saved by full strength haul loops. I can see it being even more of an issue with aid climbers, who almost always climb with a haul line, and where masses of gear and ropes possibly lead to confusion. It may not be a matter of life and death, but losing a haul line from a broken gear loop would be terribly inconvenient. The way I see it, if you're going to put a loop on the back of you harness, you might as well make it full strength.
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summerprophet
May 19, 2010, 1:16 AM
Post #49 of 55
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Wow there is a lot of assholes responding here.
The full strength haul loop is for bringing up a haul line. While indeed, full strength may be a bit of overkill, it was not that long ago, that gear loops were just stitched and broke around 10 - 20 lbs. In the event your rope gets snagged, or some dumbass grabs it, the full strength loop offers a whole lot more reliability than a few stitches.
Other uses include a clip in point for sleeping on a portaledge (particularly for stomach sleepers), a point to drag a sled (like the approach to Denali), and it also has some rescue purposes (like guiding longline cables in a helicopter, or belayed from rear while waist deep in swiftwater)
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ClimbClimb
May 19, 2010, 1:23 AM
Post #50 of 55
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1. I am a supporter, intuitively, of having full-strength haul-loops on one's harness. (I am pretty sure the one on mine is).
2. csproul's justification was weak.
3. the reaons you cite make sense and bring up some applications that I hadn't thought of. thank you.
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