Actually, the interesting thing was that it didn't require me "fully weighting" the release to get this to happen. Basically, once the device started to partially release, a slight tug sideways or upwards on the brake strand caused it to open/release completely. In other words, I initiated the release with the cord, but then pulling on the brake strand of the rope released the block completely. At which point the only way to get the climber back in control was to either pull *harder* on the brake strand (counter-intuitive, as this is what opened the device so much in the first place), or simultaneously fully release both the brake strand of the rope and the pull cord.

GO

(edited to add a word for clarity)

Or you could learn how to do it correctly and safely. Guide mode offers a lot of advantages.

Why do people love using their guides in guide mode...

I can't think of anything you can do in "guide mode" that you can't with a munter hitch, and with a munter hitch, you can actually lower the climber. I suspect that most people belaying in "guide mode" are on more of an ego trip, than anything.

Jay

Easy to belay your second while drinking, taking photos, changing clothes, etc. ... You didn't think very hard, Jay.

Also easy to belay two seconds at the same time.

As for the ego trip, that's quite a leap.

Speak for yourself.

It's not that I didn't think hard; it's that I don't climb with people whose priorities are eating, drinking, taking pictures, and changing their clothes while they're supposed to be belaying me.



I'd imagine that it would be somewhat easier to do that with an autoblocking device than with two munter hitches, and if I frequently climbed with two seconds, I might get such a device, but then I'd basically be climbing as a guide, which, as the name suggests, is what "guide mode" is intended for.


Not at all. It's clear from these discussions what's going on.


Well I don't pretend to be a guide, and I don't use "guide mode," so I'm happy to speak for myself.

Jay

So, if I'm reading this correctly, does that mean it is best to not pull on the brake strand when lowering (just keep your hand there, but use the sling - or whatever you're using to release the "lock" - to control the release of rope when lowering the climber)?

I can't think of anything you can do in "guide mode" that you can't with a munter hitch, and with a munter hitch, you can actually lower the climber. I suspect that most people belaying in "guide mode" are on more of an ego trip, than anything.

Jay

Nah, I think most folks who use it in that mode do so simply because of the convenience factor.

GO

I never suggested that using "guide mode" at a sport crag was worthwhile. But I'm sure you can imagine why eating, drinking, taking pictures, and changing clothes might be important to do while simultaneously belaying when you are trad climbing (sometimes) or alpine climbing (most of the time).

You've been climbing, what, a year, and you're lecturing us on the indispensability of an autoblocking belay device. I've probably led 100 trad pitches for every one you have, and I have never, even once, changed my clothes or taken a picture while belaying, nor have I ever used, or felt the need to use, an autoblocking belay device. My hand stays on the brake side of the rope from the moment I say "on belay" till the moment I say "off belay." That is true whether I'm using an ATC or a grigri, and it would be just as true if I were using an autblocking belay device. So, no, for me, using an autoblocking device would not make it the least bit easier to eat, drink, shit, fuck, take pictures, change my clothes, or do anything else while belaying.

Jay

Oh yeah, and keeping your hand perpetually on an autolocking belay device while you belay a second (as you claimed you would do if you had one) is stupid and superfluous.

In the extremely limited testing I did, I found that the easiest way to lower the climber was just that. If one redirects the pull cord through the anchor, one can lower the climber slowly by variably weighting the cord.

This is exactly what BD's video shows, and, I suspect, more or less exactly what the belayer who dropped the climber did.

In this instance, I think the easiest way is absolutely inferior, because if things get out of control, or the device does not behave well you are not in a good position to brake with the brake strand only.

So if I'm ever in this position, I will redirect the brake strand through the anchor above, and once the device is released, I will lower the climber using force on the brake strand only.

This, to me, seems much safer than assuming one can get the friction level of the device correct merely by varying the amount of pull on the release cord, especially considering that a little pull on the brake strand can work in concert with the pull cord to *lower* the friction.

GO

Haha! Sorry to anger you.

No, I haven't been climbing as long as you. But I do make use of my autolocking belay device quite often. And I'm not lecturing anyone. You are the only one that has made the case that they are worthless. They are not. I personally have done all of those things you described while belaying, except for one, sadly. And guess what? It didn't make my climber any less safe. That is the value of the device.

Oh yeah, and keeping your hand perpetually on an autolocking belay device while you belay a second (as you claimed you would do if you had one) is stupid and superfluous. Look how it worked for the dude in the accident. You don't need to do it. That's the point.

If you think that, that we won't be climbing together.

Jay

I'm sorry you think that.

Damn... I was right there with you up until that last paragraph. Even though it is an autoblocking devise your hand should still remain on the brake line at all times. The advantage is that you can leave a loop of slack between your brake hand and the belay devise while fussing with various sundries. And your example RE the OP is really not correct.

The ATC-Guide is starting to sound like a belay device I want to have no part of, regardless of which end of the rope I'm on.

Jay

It looks like "boymeetsrock" thinks that, too. If you persist in your habit of removing your brake hand from the rope, I'd say you're down two potential partners, and counting.

Jay

Apparently, you didn't read my post two above yours.

I do not understand this. Could you please clarify? The autolocking device, in my experience, will catch a fall, even if you should be caught without your hands on the device.

Of course, most people will have a hand on the device most of the time to collect slack as the climber ascends, but this is not strictly necessary to safely arrest a fall. My point to Jay was that, by keeping your hands on the device at all times and forgoing the "fussing with various sundries," you eliminate the advantages of the device. If you want to throw a jacket on while belaying with the thing in guide mode, go ahead. Am I wrong?

The one where you told him to keep his brake hand on the rope?

Jay

Oh yeah, and keeping your hand perpetually on an autolocking belay device while you belay a second (as you claimed you would do if you had one) is stupid and superfluous. Look how it worked for the dude in the accident. You don't need to do it. That's the point.

Yes, you are wrong. Even though the devise is an auto-blocking devise you should always have your hand on the brake line. ALWAYS. The belay devise SHOULD always lock off in auto-block mode. Accidents can happen though, and redundancy is key. Keep a hand on the brake line.