Taking your brake hand off the rope while belaying is in no way a part of climbing.

For all intents and purposes there is a video of it on Black Diamond's website. It doesn't take much imagination to see how the rope could get away from the belayer, by lowering in that manner.

Moreover, I suspect that the safety of lowering with this method is rope dependent. When lowering with a grigri, it is very difficult to control the rate of descent with certain ropes; when you unlock the device it, it does so suddenly and completely, and if you're not absolutely ready for it, you can lose control of the descent. Oddly enough, you can't accurately predict, based on rope thickness, slickness, or newness, which ropes behave this way. As DavidNinny unhelpfully points out, I haven't used an ATC–Guide, but I suspect based on my experience with the Grigri, that there may be a similar phenomenon.

Jay

Thanks Jay. Much clearer after watching it. For some reason, that setup just looks dicey to me, even though I can't explain it in words -- if I was someone doing it, I'd ask questions. But maybe that's just prejudice from reading the accident report.

Did anyone notice several posts from 2009 below the video that, among other things, point out that a reviewer tried it and DROPPED A CLIMBER?

Hopefully that is some comfort to both of the injured parties in this accident.

The rope COULD slip through the device. There is really nothing else to discuss.

Isayautumn, you are essential right IN PRINCIPLE, that the devise should catch the fall even if your hand is not on the rope. But, the fact of the matter is that the manufacturer tells you not to take you brake hand off the rope. So does climbing "law," if you will. Remember redundancy is VERY important in climbing. Your hand is the redundant part of this belay technique.

Should we start another thread for this? Also, I would really like to see this tested in some way. I would be willing to provide an ATC Guide if adatesman would test. Yes, I know that BD has a warning against taking your hand off the brake strand in guide mode, so why, you might ask, do we need to test this?

OK, you've convinced me. I'll tie the damn rope off if I need to go hands free for any reason.

It's untestable. We already know that the device will almost surely lock up. What are you going to do: a sample size of 10 million, using new, old, wet, dry, muddy, thick, and thin ropes from a variety of manufacturers, each tested with a variety of loads?

Edited to add: The reason why I wouldn't do this with a gri-gri or another device is because I haven't learned to do it that way. I have learned through watching partners belay seconds that taking your hands off the brake strand with an ATC Guide in guide mode for a brief moment to do something is OK. That is why I thought it was OK. It wasn't because I just assumed it was OK.

The problem here is your attitude. You are willingly and knowingly violating a principle that transcends whatever belay device you happen to be using. Maybe the ATC–Guide really is foolproof and will lock up with certainty with no brake hand on the rope. But you keep talking about belaying hands-off being acceptable on "autolocking belay devices" generically. What other autolocking belay devices do you plan to use with a brake hand off the rope? I can tell you for a fact that if you do this for long enough using a grigri it is inevitable that you will eventually drop your partner? Were you aware of that, or would you have haplessly applied your attitude that it is OK to let go with the brake hand on an autolocking belay device to the grigri?

Jay

I never said I would let go of the rope with a gri-gri. We have been talking about ATC-Guides the whole time, and if I was unclear, let me clarify beyond any doubt right here: I have been talking about ATC Guides, used in "guide mode" or autoblock mode.

What I am unclear on, and what testing could possibly clear up if someone here can't, is what would happen if you DID have your brake hand on the rope and the ATC Guide failed while in guide mode. If it isn't autolocking, how are you going to stop your climber from falling without getting your hand above the device anyway? Or do you think that the device could fail momentarily, and then your hand on the brake strand would pop it back into autoblocking mode? I'm not trying to be cute here; I'm curious.

But when you have an auto-locking device, your second would have to fall and the device would have to fail for the climber to be unsafe because of the lack of hand on the brake strand.

I have never done it with the guide, but I would never in a hundred years consider lowering with an autoblocking device without a munter backup. When the thing releases, it is sudden and you almost have no friction whatsoever.

My limited experience with the reverso and gigi is exactly as you say, but 1 - I'd never used an ATC guide, and 2 - many (including my wife) said that the ATC guide is much smoother in going in and out of blocking. Since I'd never actually tried it with an ATC Guide, I thought I should do so, rather than claiming (as you are) something I don't know. In testing, I found that they (and the video) are right - it does seem quite easy to moderate the speed of descent by way of pulling the sling used to unblock the device. That's why most people seem to do it that way.

Unfortunately, it would appear that there are scenarios in which the device *does* suddenly, and without warning, release.

It may, (as Jay hypothesizes) be due to rope characteristics, it may be due to the action of the brake strand (as I suggested), it may in this case (though not in vegastradguy's case) have something to do with pulling on the biner rather than the device, or it may be something as basic as interference in the movement of the device by the rock or something else on the anchor. Whatever the cause, it's clear that while this rarely occurs, it can and does happen, and so it should be assumed for safety's sake that it will.

GO

Still like people have said, no excuse for taking break hand off the rope and not knowing how to use your equipment. Also if you try something new, then you better think it through and have a backup system you know and trust (aka munter or a redirect)

there is a difference between hitching the notch and hitching the biner. Hitching the notch and re-directing the pull cord through the anchor rotates the device and removes the pinching of the rope that occurs when the device is loaded in guide mode but the rope still pulls on the biner and the whole setup maintains the friction of a normal TR belay.

It's having the device "high above [your] head" that sounds unsafe. To release the device safely, you have to lock it off, which means getting your brake hand higher than the device, which would vary from awkward to impossible, depending on how high above your head you have rigged the device.


If it's patently unsafe, I'm taking my grievance to you for belaying unsafely. You take it to BD. You're the one who bought the thing.


Three and counting.

Jay

OK. Then we're done here.

Jay

I've got your back IsayAutumn.

These things would not be recommended for belaying two at once if they could not be relied upon locking up in a fall. Simple as that. BD, Petzl only recommend never letting go for liability reasons. It would be silly not to.

Holding the brake on an autoblocking plate is like driving a Mack and having your foot our the cabin door ready to stop in case the brakes fail.

These devices work based on the pressure of the loaded climber side squeezing the brake side. Your single hand braking strength isn't even close to this.

I was going to write more but I need to go. Suffice to say there are numerous people out there climbing and using these devices who shouldn't be.

We already know that the device will almost surely lock up.

Autoblocking plates vary significantly in design and aren't meant to provide slip friction when in autoblocking mode. Even if you manage to get slip friction working in an autoblocking configuration working then you will be providing this friction via rope on rope contact. This is not desirable.

Effectively the autoblocking aspect on these devices is binary with very little cross over. If you wish to lower then the friction mechanics are completely different so you better be ready with your brake rope in a brake position to lower. If you for some reason believe it isn't binary it is probably because you had the brake rope in a high friction position anyway.

This all should be obvious if you understand how the device works. Unfortunately many people these days have little understanding of the equipment they use.

I've got your back IsayAutumn.

These things would not be recommended for belaying two at once if they could not be relied upon locking up in a fall. Simple as that. BD, Petzl only recommend never letting go for liability reasons. It would be silly not to.

Holding the brake on an autoblocking plate is like driving a Mack and having your foot our the cabin door ready to stop in case the brakes fail.

These devices work based on the pressure of the loaded climber side squeezing the brake side. Your single hand braking strength isn't even close to this.

I was going to write more but I need to go. Suffice to say there are numerous people out there climbing and using these devices who shouldn't be.