The main point is that holding on to the brake strand really doesn't isn't much of a "backup" for an autoblocking device. It's an all or nothing device. If it did fail, you would just be holding onto the weight of the climber running over a carabiner. If you really want redundancy, you would throw a second belay device or a progress capture on there. The same would apply to an atc.

[quote "IsayAutumn
What kills me is, there are people in this thread piling on me who HAVE NEVER USED an ATC Guide. They have no place in this discussion./quote]

Please stop getting itched and start listening. People who have never used an ATC guide do have a place in this discussion. They might have other knowledge like;

- VERY long climbing experience
- mechanics
- risk handling
- or using the Reverso.

Risk handling will tell you, amongst other things, how important it is to hard wire things that must not fail, ie not letting go of your brake hand. Or that complicating things increases risk.

Understanding mechanics will tell you that lowering by releasing the autoblock function is something potentially very risky.

I know this might be slightly off topic, but if you do trust the autoblock function for a few seconds WITHOUT telling your second, he/she might be doing a dangerous move during just those seconds.

I think guide-mode is an excellent idea, but it complicates something that trial and error has made safe and invites to risky behavior (jackets, no hands etc). The GriGri was also a great idea - but accidents did in fact increase (at least in the beginning).

It's an all or nothing device.

I am getting itched because people who have not used an ATC Guide don't seem to understand that having your hand on the brake strand is not necessary to arrest a fall, nor will it provide much of a "back up" for the device if it should ever "fail."

I think I've gotten all I need out of this thread.

What's wrong with simply redirecting the climber-side rope through the anchor above, clipping the ATC through belayer's harness and lowering the second in the old & boring way[?

Exactly. And that's why I think people who have never used an ATC Guide are getting mixed up. I keep seeing comparisons to a gri gri. There is nothing about a gri gri that resembles an ATC Guide. Backing up the ATC Guide while in guide mode is akin to backing up your brake hand while using a regular ATC during a lead belay. There is no need to do it. The guide is already in "brake mode." That's how it brakes!

If you trust an ATC Guide to be used in guide mode, then you trust not having your brake hand on the rope, as it will not do much to ensure the safety of your climber if the ATC Guide "fails."

This is all said assuming that the belayer, whether or not his hand is on the rope, is paying attention and providing an otherwise competent belay.

How can you be paying attention and providing a competent belay when you're otherwise engaged in doing whatever to the point where you can't bother to hold onto the rope?

I know some people don't think that this dude knows what he is talking about, but it is obvious he has a lot of experience in the mountains and probably at the crags as well. Take a look at what he does and says around the 2:45 mark in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGnbmiJEGWk

Obviously, what someone on youtube says should not be taken as gospel. But I have seen other very experienced climbers doing the same thing, either bringing up two seconds or a single climber.

Edited to add an article by Kelly Cordes, whom I know a lot of people respect:

http://www.spadout.com/...y-the-belay-station/

Being from the other side of the pond (the Atlantic) have absolutely no idea who Kelly Cordes is. But I would like to know if he really has introduced the command "Stopped cleaning gear" in his climbing vocabulary. Otherwise I would say that his approach basically only applies to a climber not moving upwards very often.

I do in fact using the commands "staying put" and "climbing" (afterwards) in certain situations, but I sure want my belayer to be on attentive belay then they have said so.

Well, have to go home. My wife is waiting and wanting me to prepare dinner.

It's possible. Have you ever adjust something, gotten a drink, or put on a coat or quickly done anything else while belaying a second? Did you keep your hand on the brake strand? If you did, then you were providing the exact same level of attention to the belay and climber you would if you were to do that with an ATC Guide while removing your hand temporarily from the rope. Having your hand on or off the rope does not affect the level of attention you can pay to your climber if using an auto-blocking device like the ATC Guide. At least, it does not affect mine.

I call bullshit on that one. Physical contact is, in itself, a higher level of attention than visual observation.

Patto, thanks for clearly expressing something that I was plainly unable to. It makes sense that BD would, for liability reasons, have this in their manual.

What kills me is, there are people in this thread piling on me who HAVE NEVER USED an ATC Guide. They have no place in this discussion.

You almost, half-heartedly, kinda sorta did but now your back tracking. *Shakes head

OK. I guess I don't see your point. Are you saying that it is unsafe to do as I have described with an ATC Guide? If so, then good for you. Go ahead and add yourself to the list.

Patto, thanks for clearly expressing something that I was plainly unable to. It makes sense that BD would, for liability reasons, have this in their manual.

What kills me is, there are people in this thread piling on me who HAVE NEVER USED an ATC Guide. They have no place in this discussion.

What's wrong with simply redirecting the climber-side rope through the anchor above, clipping the ATC through belayer's harness and lowering the second in the old & boring way[?

Yeah, but some of us have been climbing for over 20 years and have used a dozen different belay devices, some of which work on the same principle as the ATC–Guide, but just haven't used that one specific device. And so maybe we understand basic principles of belaying better than you. You'll notice that even though I haven't used an ATC–Guide, the majority of those in the thread who have have agreed with me, not you. You don't take your hand brake hand off the rope. It is pretty fucking ridiculous that after 10 pages, a 1-year climber is still arguing against the most fundamental rule in climbing.

Jay

OK. I guess I don't see your point. Are you saying that it is unsafe to do as I have described with an ATC Guide? If so, then good for you. Go ahead and add yourself to the list.

It's not cool.

Jay

For a competent second, it is superior in every respect, and in fact is more respectful to the second. However, it's not cool, it's not the latest gimmick, it doesn't let the belayer be lazy, it doesn't have the word "guide" in it, and it's a lot of work, to "bring up" your girlfriend whom you've "put on" a route two number grades above her climbing level.

Jay

(SNIP)

I understand you have a lot of experience, as do others in this thread that disagree with me. Unfortunately for this thread ME, that doesn't change my opinion of the safety of the ATC Guide, if you use it how I've suggested.

(SNIP).