For a competent second, it is superior in every respect, and in fact is more respectful to the second. However, it's not cool, it's not the latest gimmick, it doesn't let the belayer be lazy, it doesn't have the word "guide" in it, and it's a lot of work to "bring up" your girlfriend whom you've "put on" a route two number grades above her climbing level.

Jay

Of course, there is probably a (good) argument to be made that if there is a possibility that your second will need to be lowered and may not be able to unweight the rope in the process, an autolocking device isn't the best solution for that route's belaying needs.

If I was belaying someone on something I thought they would be falling all over, I wouldn't use the autoblocking mode.

That's the argument I've been making from the outset. There is almost always a real possibility that you will have to lower your second after he or she has weighted the rope. Hence, "guide mode" is contraindicated unless there is a specific, compelling overriding reason.

Jay

What if they want to be lowered? What if they inadvertently climbed past a piece. Then you need to go through some technical, risky, complicated procedure just to lower them 2 feet so they can retrieve a piece of gear.

And, besides, when a second finds herself on a pitch that she's "falling all over" it's due to the leader's ego.

"Don't worry, Babe. I've got you on Guide Mode."

Jay

What if they want to be lowered? What if they inadvertently climbed past a piece. Then you need to go through some technical, risky, complicated procedure just to lower them 2 feet so they can retrieve a piece of gear.

And, besides, when a second finds herself on a pitch that she's "falling all over" it's due to the leader's ego.

"Don't worry, Babe. I've got you on Guide Mode."

Jay

But they also wouldn't talk about going "hands-free" to adjust things and add layers if they thought it was horrifically unsafe.

Did you misread his post? He said he would *not* use the guide mode.

Slow down (or get better glasses already!)

GO

To Isayautumn: As I read your first posting, I immediately thought, nice guy but I wouldn’t climb with him. Nothing personal, but I get scared easily. In fact, after reading this thread, maybe I don’t want to climb with anyone using an autolocker other than on easy ground in an alpine environment, since its use raises questions about their judgment and common sense

I don't think it is "horrifically unsafe." I think it is poor practice. For one thing, no matter what you say, you can't give as good a belay with your hands off the device as with your hands on. One might think that should go without saying, but apparently not. With your hands off the belay device the time needed to react to the climber's movements is increased. Furthermore, you lose one of your most important sources of information about the climber's movements: tactile information from the rope.

Jay

That's the argument I've been making from the outset. There is almost always a real possibility that you will have to lower your second after he or she has weighted the rope. Hence, "guide mode" is contraindicated unless there is a specific, compelling overriding reason.

Jay

This is from “RG” on the Gunks thread concerning the accident (I assume this is the same as our RGold). It says exactly what I’ve been thinking and said it so well I’m posting it here.

«Autolocking belay devices have their place for experienced climbers moving fast on multipitch or
clients moving up. For cragging, I think they suck for giving upper belays because of the difficulty of paying rope back out to a second who wants to step down. Guides don't care much about this; let the client end up on tension, but for seconds who would actually like to climb the pitch, an autolocker belay is an annoyance. When it comes to lowering, they also stink. Depending on how much of the climber's weight is transmitted up to the belayer, the belayer might have to exert a lot of force in order to rotate the plate into lowering position. They might be tempted to use both hands to do this. When you release a loaded autolocker, there is a quite sudden loss of friction and the potential for a rapid drop, although the plate should lock back up in that situation once the raising force is released. All in all, what we have is a solution to a problem that never existed. Yes, it is slightly more convenient to use guide mode, easier on your back, for instance, but you are interposing another layer of technology and then practically inviting disaster by enjoying all the hands-free "benefits" conferred by the device.»

I think there are a few separate arguments going on here, and they are getting confused. I am going to attempt to summarize it below, as neutrally as I think is reasonable. Think about it like a flow chart of what you believe. Feel free to criticize this summary of argument. I am not taking sides, just trying to organize the debate a little.

Whether or not one should always have a hand on the brake rope

1) If you believe that having a hand on the brake rope significantly reduces the chance of catastrophic failure or significantly increases the chance that an ATC-Guide-like device will lock in the event of a fall, one should always have a hand on the brake line. If not, proceed to step 2.

2) If you believe that not having a hand on the brake decreases your attentiveness to the belay and therefore is more dangerous for your second, you should always have a hand on the brake rope. If not, having a hand on the brake rope at all times is not necessary.



Whether or not using an ATC-Guide-like device is appropriate, given the possibility that one may have to lower a second.

1) If you believe that there is a reasonable possibility that the belayer would have to lower a free-hanging or otherwise unhelpful second (i.e. couldn't unweight the belay device by themselves) proceed to step 2. Otherwise, the difficulty in lowering a person is irrelevant.

2) If you believe that there is a method of lowering a person using an ATC-Guide-like device which, with adequate practice, allows one to consistently safely lower a second (i.e. either sling/carabiner pulling up on the pull tab/hole, or sling/carabiner pulling up on the brake carabiner), and that one has adequate experience with this method, then the ATC-Guide can be used in a scenario in which there is a possibility of lowering the second. If not, proceed to step 3.

3) If you believe that an ATC-Guide-like device does not require a hand on the brake line at all times, and that the additional convenience of taking your hand off the brake rope at least some of the time outweighs the additional danger and inconvenience of being unable to safely lower a second with the device, the use of this type of device may be appropriate for belaying a second. If not, this device should not be used in this manner.


Edit: Note that I never state that any of this is "best practice" or that one should use this belay device in this manner. Rather I state what would be logically reasonable given your beliefs about the device.

How is it "more respectful to the second"?

I would add a third bolded point, which, for me, is the #1 reason to avoid autoblocking devices: as I hinted earlier, and Rich Goldstone spelled out, an autoblocking belay hinders the second's ability to free climb the pitch.

Jay

[quote "IsayAutumn"

As you can see, they do state that the manufacturers advise leaving a "light" hand on the brake strand. But they also wouldn't talk about going "hands-free" to adjust things and add layers if they thought it was horrifically unsafe.

"Hands-free" with a tie off and without are very different. The only times I go "hands free" on my climber are after either tieing off or wrapping a leg.

As usual, Rich sums up my thoughts better than I do.

Jay

As Rich states, autoblock devices are generally a poor choice for ordinary cragging. They are best reserved for situations in which advanced climbers need speed at the expense of the second's ability to free climb the pitch, and other special situations. I have hypothesized that, despite their being a poor choice for routine climbing, they have become, for no good reason, the default choice among many climbers (especially n00bs, though I can't prove that). And now the data bears this out. Prompted by this thread, someone has started a poll in another thread, asking "How do you belay your second?" Here are the results to date.

Half of all leaders responding to the poll say they belay their seconds (most often, we must presume, since respondents were forced to choose a single response), using an autoblocking device in autoblock configuration. Furthermore, if you want the benefits of a direct belay off the anchor, then the best "device" for this purpose—the munter hitch—is used the least.

Jay

Think back to the first time you set everything up and led a climb. Did you practise all the skills of setting anchors, placements etc, or did you just tie a few knots in random things, throw an ATC at your pal, say 'she'll be right' and start up the route?

I think some of you are missing the point in a misguided effort to get people to agree your way is the best way. You've stated clearly that you wouldn't use/agree to someone using an ATC Guide, some of you regardless of whether the belayer has hands on it or not. Fine. Really. We get it.

This is bleedingly obvious, but it's worth reiterating a simple maxim: climbing is about assessing your level of competence relative to risk and using that assessment to make decisions about what you do. There are people here who rope solo. There are some who lead. There are some who only top-rope, and some for whom climbing stairs is an exercise in fear. There are some who use the texas trad rope trick, slackline on a high line without backup, free solo and do other potentially highly dangerous things.

These people have all made decisions (intelligent or otherwise) based on their level of experience and competence.
I don't think the fact that around 50% of respondents use an autoblock device indicates that they're a default or mostly-noob option. I think it's more of an indication that this thread is suffering from groupthink (everyone get that dangerous belayer!). I know many climbers with 20-30 years experience who use an autoblock for seconds. We all make our own decisions, period.

Think back to the first time you set everything up and led a climb. Did you practise all the skills of setting anchors, placements etc, or did you just tie a few knots in random things, throw an ATC at your pal, say 'she'll be right' and start up the route? Should you practise lowering before using an ATC Guide? Obviously.

Edit to clarify my leading example.