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Spreading out the Big Wall anchor
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evanwish


Mar 31, 2010, 10:40 PM
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Spreading out the Big Wall anchor
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I'm doing (or rather attempting to do) my first Wall early this summer: The Prow.

The How To Climb Big Wall says to use the typical chordalete/master point anchor set up. I also know that the more you spread out the anchor the easier and less cluttered it is with two partners, the haul bag/hauling point, portaledge, extras from rack, etc...
So what I'm looking for are ways to spread out the belay that don't include clipping straight into the bolts old style (I like my equalization) I figure two master points would be a good way to spread it out with climbers on one, and haul bag/ledge on the other.

I was thinking of different systems, and wondering if it has a name, and if its any good:
1) Chordalete with two figure 8's in each end (not a loop)
2) Clip the figure 8's to the outside bolts
3) Clipping the middle of the chord with a figure 8 or a clove hitch to the middle bolt
4) Both loops get a figure 8.


evanwish


Apr 1, 2010, 2:51 PM
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Does anybody use a system like this or is it simply no good? I've heard of it as just a W-chordalete or something along those lines...It took less than a minute to set it up, and i imagine it saving some clutter from a single masterpoint.



the extra loops on the outside are just the slack looped through a second time to take up slack. It would be just the same as using two smaller chordalets or slings, but i almost always loved carry a chordalete just to play it safe in case i actually really need one. Obviously this set up only equalizes each power point between two bolts, and puts extra force on the middle bolt, but as long as we keep the weight centered on each master point, this should be ok right?

Thank you,
Evan


(This post was edited by evanwish on Apr 1, 2010, 2:56 PM)


acorneau


Apr 1, 2010, 5:27 PM
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Re: [evanwish] Spreading out the Big Wall anchor [In reply to]
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evanwish wrote:
Does anybody use a system like this or is it simply no good? I've heard of it as just a W-chordalete or something along those lines...It took less than a minute to set it up, and i imagine it saving some clutter from a single masterpoint.


I'm no big-waller, but I'll give an educated opinion.

The basic premise is on the right track, but why have one leg of each sub-cordelette with one strand and the other with three? I'd make it so that there are two strands on each leg.

If no one else gives you a good answer you can always learn a lot by searching for big-wall photos, both here and at the other climbing sites.

Here's a few I found that might get you started:






(This post was edited by acorneau on Apr 1, 2010, 5:37 PM)


dugl33


Apr 1, 2010, 5:32 PM
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Seems ok. The one thing I might add though is its nice to clip the bolt hangers initially with some good sized lockers, and then start building your v-s, w-s, and direct clip-ins from there. The v-s could be cordelette or runners.

By putting large lockers on the hangers first, you have a lot more space to stay organized, since you can then clip multiple biners into each locker.

See http://www.climbing.com/...t/techtips/ttaid224/

I found myself gravitating to a setup like this out of pure necessity when climbing in a team of three.


fenderfour


Apr 2, 2010, 8:04 AM
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Re: [dugl33] Spreading out the Big Wall anchor [In reply to]
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dugl33 wrote:
Seems ok. The one thing I might add though is its nice to clip the bolt hangers initially with some good sized lockers, and then start building your v-s, w-s, and direct clip-ins from there. The v-s could be cordelette or runners.

By putting large lockers on the hangers first, you have a lot more space to stay organized, since you can then clip multiple biners into each locker.

See http://www.climbing.com/...t/techtips/ttaid224/

I found myself gravitating to a setup like this out of pure necessity when climbing in a team of three.

I completely agree with this. I have used 2 cordalettes at overnight belay/bivy sites. Both cordalettes use the 3 clip in points you show, although I would add more points if it was a gear anchor. One anchor is equalized to one side, say the right, the other anchor/cordalette is equalized to the left to create separation.


Partner xtrmecat


Apr 2, 2010, 9:14 AM
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Re: [fenderfour] Spreading out the Big Wall anchor [In reply to]
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  Think about it. Really the only things needing to be on the MP are the two climbers attachment, and the kit. When bivying and hanging a ledge, I tend to spread out in other ways. I see no reason to hang the rack, spare food, ledge, and every dang thing that comes out of miss piggy from the master point.

If you are not talking bivy, then just get it all there and get it on the master point, and get the leader on his way. Time is crutial, comfort isn't. It is nice, but not necessary. I always use a minimum of three points of attachment of the cordalette to the wall. No one says you cannot make other attachments for the bivy, and back them up to the anchor, should they pull or wiggle out.

I believe the ledge hung from a so so good cam and a bunk cam on the last bivy. It was all that we had to keep it out of the way so we could both stretch out some. We were both on the anchor via the rope(pink), and the cluster of stuff hung off a bunk cam in the corner. Boots, personal stuff, rack, cookstove, jacket, jugs, you name it was all on two daisies, backed up to the MP on this cam.




My head spent the night about two inches under the bottom of the rack, crammed into the corner, with a 6 inch crack to my side and below. Feet hung over the sloping ledge by a foot or so. Slept like a baby. Not optimum, but good enough, We were only sleeping there for craps sake.

Shorter answer, use what you have, keep it simple and easy to understand. If not a bivy, don't complicate it. Spreading out on a huge ledge and having everything accessible would be great, but I've only been on one ledge I can remember that could accommodate that, and I was so tired it didn't matter.

Bob


(This post was edited by xtrmecat on Apr 2, 2010, 9:42 AM)


thabadcharacter


Apr 2, 2010, 9:27 AM
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Re: [evanwish] Spreading out the Big Wall anchor [In reply to]
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Besides a couple anchors, the Prow ain't gonna have 3 bolts for you to set this rig up. Neither will most belays. Some, sure, but not all.
Typically you find a 2 bolt anchor, and maybe another bolt or more often a rivet off to the side to hang your ledge from. You can then back this up to the master point. I like to have my bag as high as possible, to make it easy to get into. So I clip my docking cord into a single bolt, preferably on the side of the anchor that it will be leaving from on the next haul.
If you decide to extend your anchor way down low like your pic shows, it will end up with you having to fix a line and get down there on your jumars or a hike down your ladders with a long tie-in everytime you want to get something out! Save your self the trouble.
Getting the bag high as possible means needing to haul from the highest point possible, so I will often make a cordalette MP and fix the lead line to it, then haul off of a single bolt (if it is bomber, the load is reasonable, and it wont set up the hauling device for funky torqueing.)
Because unless your bags can be lifted by hand, the highest you can get them is level with your pulley system.


shimanilami


Apr 2, 2010, 10:55 AM
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[IMG]http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p96/evanphoto/0_0-2.jpg[/IMG]

This is too complicated. My approach is:

1. Put fat lockers on the bolts.
2. String the cordalette. Anchor self to the MP. Use daisies to move yourself around.
3. Hang one aider each off of the outer bolts. If stopping for the night, then put a shoulder length sling on the bolt first, then hang the aiders from that. (You'll use the aiders to get from the anchors down to your ledge, haul bag, poop tube, etc.)
4. Haul off whatever bolt is most convenient. If stopping for the night, tether pig to an "outside" bolt or solid piece in order to spread things out. Anchor the pig to the MP.
5. Hang the ledge from the bolt farthest away from the pig. If appropriate, put in a piece and hang the ledge from that instead.

I'd agree with the poster who said that it if you're not stopping, then don't sweat the setup too much. With experience, you'll learn how to visualize the best arrangement before you even reach the anchor.


evanwish


Apr 2, 2010, 12:02 PM
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Re: [fenderfour] Spreading out the Big Wall anchor [In reply to]
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fenderfour wrote:
dugl33 wrote:
Seems ok. The one thing I might add though is its nice to clip the bolt hangers initially with some good sized lockers, and then start building your v-s, w-s, and direct clip-ins from there. The v-s could be cordelette or runners.

By putting large lockers on the hangers first, you have a lot more space to stay organized, since you can then clip multiple biners into each locker.

See http://www.climbing.com/...t/techtips/ttaid224/

I found myself gravitating to a setup like this out of pure necessity when climbing in a team of three.

I completely agree with this. I have used 2 cordalettes at overnight belay/bivy sites. Both cordalettes use the 3 clip in points you show, although I would add more points if it was a gear anchor. One anchor is equalized to one side, say the right, the other anchor/cordalette is equalized to the left to create separation.

that was my original plan, but then thought maybe i could conserve gear that way to travel lighter. Maybe i'll just stick to the regular plan, its not that much extra clutter or gear


evanwish


Apr 2, 2010, 12:23 PM
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Thank you everybody for your replies, I'm taking them all to heart.

thabadcharacter wrote:
Besides a couple anchors, the Prow ain't gonna have 3 bolts for you to set this rig up. Neither will most belays.

The Topo says 6 three-bolt anchors (7 including tapir terrace), 3 two bolt anchors, and two natural anchors. However, the supertopo could be off (can't rely on it too much)

thabadcharacter wrote:
If you decide to extend your anchor way down low like your pic shows, it will end up with you having to fix a line and get down there on your jumars or a hike down your ladders with a long tie-in everytime you want to get something out! Save your self the trouble.
Good point, Thank you.



Here is basically the same anchor as shown on the Climbing Tech Tips, just with one single chordalete instead of a chordalete and two slings.
Thoughts? Only took 50 seconds to put together without a rush and seems plenty redundant.



shimanilami wrote:
I'd agree with the poster who said that it if you're not stopping, then don't sweat the setup too much. With experience, you'll learn how to visualize the best arrangement before you even reach the anchor.

Ok, got it. I like the suggestion.


I apologize about all the questions, I just want to make sure that i've got everything down perfectly to its best possible system so that I don't waste time and potentially slow down other parties :shudder:


climbingaggie03


Apr 2, 2010, 12:54 PM
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I went up the prow in 2008, the way we did our anchors was to have an anchor for the haul bag, and an anchor for the climbers. Most of the time we just used a double length sling on 2 bolts with extension limiting knots. I do remember making one natural anchor when I got off route, For that I used the same idea, but set up two anchors with cordalets. For the most part, you're only hauling up to dinner ledge so you really only have to haul 3 pitches, From there maybe you haul a little bag with your day stuff but that's pretty easy.


evanwish


Apr 2, 2010, 1:02 PM
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climbingaggie03 wrote:
For the most part, you're only hauling up to dinner ledge so you really only have to haul 3 pitches, From there maybe you haul a little bag with your day stuff but that's pretty easy.

Do you mean Anchorage ledge? Also, we are doing it in the recommended three days/two nights.

Day one set up bivy at P3, fix P4. Day two climb to Tapir Terrace, set up bivy and maybe fix P9. Then day 3 we finish it off and have plenty of time to find our way down the NDG


climbingaggie03


Apr 2, 2010, 4:34 PM
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whoops, i was thinking of the south face, not the prow. You're heading up the prow for your first wall? seems like there's some thin C2 stuff on the prow, and I think the bivy ledges kinda suck, but to each his own.


evanwish


Apr 2, 2010, 6:39 PM
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climbingaggie03 wrote:
whoops, i was thinking of the south face, not the prow. You're heading up the prow for your first wall? seems like there's some thin C2 stuff on the prow, and I think the bivy ledges kinda suck, but to each his own.

Yep! thats right!
I'm fine with micro gear, actually really like placing/using it too. We're bringing 2 sets of HB offsets, 1.5 set of regular micro nuts, set of ball nuts, and 2 sets of Micro cams (including offsets) plus all the other regular gear... I've taken falls on as small as a 000 C3 so I don't mind small gear so much Tongue

As far as the bivy ledges, we're bringing the BS Ledge (Metolious Bomb Shelter).


Durin


Apr 19, 2010, 10:58 PM
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A couple thoughts:

Someone mentioned earlier that it's nice to have the piggy high. I second that... I like to haul off one bolt assuming it's bomber. That way it's easier to dock the piggy up high.

Using the static line to clove hitch the ledge to its bolt/rivet/anchor/whatever allows you to adjust the height of the ledge very easily. Only problem is that if you want the ledge really high, you lose height from the extra knots and biner.

If the pig is hung off one bolt and the ledge is on another, you only really need the climbers on the masterpoint. So you don't really need a 2 masterpoint system. All the other crap goes on the single strands of cordalette.

Good luck with the prow man! Burly first wall!


salamanizer


Apr 19, 2010, 11:22 PM
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Evan, I'll show you whats up in the gym one evening before you head out if you want.

Books got the basics but you'll burn alot of time wanking around trying to put paper to practice if ya na' mean.

Better to get some hands on instruction before you blast.

The Prow's a cake walk.


evanwish


Apr 20, 2010, 10:15 AM
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Thanks guys, thats good stuff.

We're heading out to SugarLoaf the day i get back from Humboldt to work out any kinks with the system, and heading to Yos the next weekend. Maybe I'll catch you some time between :)

We were planning on the SFWC but a few things changed that plan lol. We each picked up some cam hooks and a tallon and spent a whole day leading off of them (while placing pro) and seeing just what they can do. We had so much fun on hooks that we decided to buy a whole "set" of them and do a route where we could use some hooking as well as micro nutting. Then my partner bought a portaledge so the Prow it is! :D

bought a few beaks for deadheads. Each of us have, (two) narrow cam hooks, a wide cam hook, a Cliffhanger, Talon, and Grappling, and i even bought the micro cam hook, not because it'll be at all useful, but because i'm just so damn curious!! haha [we obviously won't bring all that, but we'll use it all someday in the future!]


EATBOOERS


Jun 5, 2010, 6:23 PM
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why haul off one bolt??? sounds stupid, sorry to be so blunt but why?

if i am going to bivi i like to haul off the power point, as i always do, fuck my bags r heavy and me and my buddies r space hauling that sack, never on one bolt....


bivi should be posh, thats y we wall climb right? to get the best camping in the park for free!!!

i say bivi low and have the bags low too..once they r at the anchor i will dock them off one bolt while being snugly backed up to the master. use your double over the shoulder slings to make secondary power points. if u want?? keep them seperate so in the morning the leader can have them if he needs. Z order is key. keep both legs in the cordlette to. haul, set ledge, down haul bag to ledges side. use seprate docking line with a munter mule. fix haul line snugly to master point. now in the morning u can load your pig from your ledge while getting freshly baked for the days adventuresWink leave the bags there till the leader is ready to haul?? am i drunk?


summerprophet


Jun 7, 2010, 2:17 PM
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thabadcharacter wrote:
Besides a couple anchors, the Prow ain't gonna have 3 bolts for you to set this rig up. Neither will most belays. Some, sure, but not all.
Actually the Majority of trade routes in Yosemite DO have three bolt anchors. Including the Prow.
thabadcharacter wrote:
Typically you find a 2 bolt anchor, and maybe another bolt or more often a rivet off to the side to hang your ledge from.

Hmmmm... Most of those anchors were replaced beginning in the late 1990's. Three Fat new shiney bolts is the norm.
thabadcharacter wrote:
You can then back this up to the master point. I like to have my bag as high as possible, to make it easy to get into. .

Agreed. I use the shortest slings possible, rather than cordolette, for the haul.... saves from untying knots from a tensioned system.
thabadcharacter wrote:
So I clip my docking cord into a single bolt, preferably on the side of the anchor that it will be leaving from on the next haul..

New standard is to use a daisy, or adjustable daisy to establish the bag high.... always keep the Haul line as a backup to this.
thabadcharacter wrote:
Because unless your bags can be lifted by hand, the highest you can get them is level with your pulley system.
Unless you do a quicky review of Blockers hitches or similar systems before you are up there, to complete the final raise. (after all, you wanna be able to get at those goodies you hid from your partner half way down the bag right?


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