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USnavy


Apr 4, 2010, 5:41 AM
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Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)?
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So it seems its fairly standard to attach a daisy to each aider to chill on or to assist in bounce testing. Well if you were to climb the aider on your first piece, place the second piece and attach the aider, lightly weight the piece to see if it holds, then fully weight the piece, and then the piece pulls, you would take a factor two fall on the daisy still attached to the piece you were standing on below. Of course its preferable to hold onto the last piece to catch yourself but that's not always possible.

Obviously taking a factor two fall on a sling is extremely serious so how do you fix this issue when you still need the daisys to assist in bounce testing, resting, retrieval of an aider that is attached to a piece that blows, ect?


(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 4, 2010, 5:47 AM)


hafilax


Apr 4, 2010, 6:46 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)? [In reply to]
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Generally you clip your lead rope to the first piece so that if the second one blows you are caught primarily by the rope. Once you have some confidence in the second piece you clip into it with the rope etc.

Are you talking about unbelayed solo aid? Crazy


USnavy


Apr 4, 2010, 6:58 AM
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Re: [hafilax] Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)? [In reply to]
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No I am talking about standard everyday C1 aid. I know you clip the lead rope as you go however the sling still attached to your lower piece will catch before the lead rope even comes tight.

I will use there pics to explain:





As you can see in the first pic Ammon has a daisy chain attached to each aider. Now lets use the second pic as an example. Right now he is standing on his first piece (first piece in the pic anyway). There is a daisy attached to the aider that is attached to the first piece. Next he will step up and place another Knifeblade. When he does he will clip his second aider to it and bounce test it. Before he can unclip his first lower aider he will have to fully weight the second higher aider. If the second piece blows he will fall straight onto the daisy attached to his first lower piece. Yes the rope is clipped into that first lower piece but the rope will not come tight before his daisy will. Thus FF2 fall on the daisy. Bad day. So how do you avoid that?


(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 4, 2010, 7:02 AM)


coastal_climber


Apr 4, 2010, 7:15 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)? [In reply to]
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The way I was taught, and still use is with 2 aiders on 1 biner. 4 aiders total. With a daisy on each pair.

Not connected to the aiders in any way. Rule is: Don't drop your fucking aiders. Pretty simple.

That said, if testing something I think has the possibility of blowing, I'll clip the daisy attached to the piece I'm testing to my harness with an oval, just in case...


kobaz


Apr 4, 2010, 7:29 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)? [In reply to]
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Assuming you are not high stepping... You'll probably be standing in the 3rd step of your aiders on your lower piece. You place your next piece as high as you can reach and clip your second daisy and aider.

Most likely the last step or second to last step of your second aider will match up with where you are currently standing on your lower aider.

Bounce test from this current position. If your piece holds, move your weight onto the top piece, unclip your aider from the lower piece, and clip the rope to the lower piece.

If the top piece blows, you are still standing on the lower. No fall whatsoever. If your lower piece blows, the rope clipped below will catch you with a standard lead fall.

When high stepping or top stepping... you'll want to clip your aider/daisy to the next piece as usual, but also clip the rope to your current piece, and bounce test from the lowest possible step on the second aider. Since you will be above your current piece the clipping of the rope is not going to needlessly extend a fall if the piece you're currently on blows. (ie: don't clip the rope to your current piece if not top stepping, it will just extend your fall if that piece blows). Preclipping when top stepping will speed up the transition process.

It's going to be harder to do a full bounce while still keeping poised on the lower aider but basically it's a similar procedure as before. After bounce testing, tighten your tether to the top piece and ease your weight onto it if it's a dicey placement. Once your weight is on, as quick as you can, untether from the lower piece, and now you've removed the ff2 potential. While transferring weight to the top piece, keep one foot on the lower aider... so if the top piece blows, you're still standing on the lower piece... no ff2.


moose_droppings


Apr 4, 2010, 9:03 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)? [In reply to]
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It's hard to avoid an FF2 till your second piece without a Jesus piece of pro. I get high in my aider on the first piece, reach and place your second piece and clip your aider to it. As soon as you've tested and stepped on to your second piece, you remove your aider from the first piece and then clip into the first piece with the rope. Rinse and repeat.


malcolm777b


Apr 4, 2010, 10:51 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
Obviously taking a factor two fall on a sling is extremely serious so how do you fix this issue when you still need the daisys to assist in bounce testing, resting, retrieval of an aider that is attached to a piece that blows, ect?

No way will you ever take a factor 2 fall on a daisy while aiding. To do so, you would have to be on the 2nd piece, with no slack in the daisy to the last piece.

With that said, I understand daisy falls in aid to be quite different than rope falls while free climbing. The daisy/aider clip in point is RIGHT next to the rock, where you generally are not (person with aid rack and a bunch of other crap is usually some distance back, especially when bounce testing). If you did happen to fall, the daisy is going to start to catch you at some point down and OUT from the rock. So, part of the fall will be swinging in.

I've HEARD that daisy falls in aid are painful, but never experienced one.


USnavy


Apr 10, 2010, 7:23 AM
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Re: [kobaz] Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)? [In reply to]
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kobaz wrote:
Assuming you are not high stepping... You'll probably be standing in the 3rd step of your aiders on your lower piece. You place your next piece as high as you can reach and clip your second daisy and aider.

Most likely the last step or second to last step of your second aider will match up with where you are currently standing on your lower aider.

Bounce test from this current position. If your piece holds, move your weight onto the top piece, unclip your aider from the lower piece, and clip the rope to the lower piece.

If the top piece blows, you are still standing on the lower. No fall whatsoever. If your lower piece blows, the rope clipped below will catch you with a standard lead fall.

When high stepping or top stepping... you'll want to clip your aider/daisy to the next piece as usual, but also clip the rope to your current piece, and bounce test from the lowest possible step on the second aider. Since you will be above your current piece the clipping of the rope is not going to needlessly extend a fall if the piece you're currently on blows. (ie: don't clip the rope to your current piece if not top stepping, it will just extend your fall if that piece blows). Preclipping when top stepping will speed up the transition process.

It's going to be harder to do a full bounce while still keeping poised on the lower aider but basically it's a similar procedure as before. After bounce testing, tighten your tether to the top piece and ease your weight onto it if it's a dicey placement. Once your weight is on, as quick as you can, untether from the lower piece, and now you've removed the ff2 potential. While transferring weight to the top piece, keep one foot on the lower aider... so if the top piece blows, you're still standing on the lower piece... no ff2.
Its the steps I have put in bold that I am referring to. Once you fully shift your weight to the top piece you can no longer use the lower aider to catch you if the top piece pulls as you’re no longer standing on it. Its possible that the top piece could pull before you can reach down and unclip the aider and daisy from the lower piece. If that happens your going to fall right onto the bottom piece with the sling attached. Thats a very serious issue for a factor two fall on a sling can push over 25 kN (limited by the breaking strength of the cam in this case).

So how can one avoid the possibility of falling on the sling for the brief moment where your weight is shifted on the high piece but you have not yet unclipped the daisy from the lower piece? It seems the only option would be to unclip your daisy from the lower piece before you weight the high piece. But doing that would increase time and complexity as you would then be clipping an aider to a piece then clipping the daisy, and unclipping the daisy then unclipping the aider, four steps instead of two.


(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 10, 2010, 7:26 AM)


moose_droppings


Apr 10, 2010, 8:23 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)? [In reply to]
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You've bounce tested the snot out of the piece your going to get on right? If you've tested that hard it won't pull from you gently weighting it. Slide onto it and unclip your bottom aider.

But yes, there's a slight chance that what your describing can happen, especially on pieces that you can't test heavily but will only hold body weight. You can unclip your daisy from your first piece. If you've got long aiders (you do right) you can hang on to the first aider as you step into the top one and when you know its holding, unclip the lower. Some say you can scrunch down in your top aider when transferring to it, keeping your waist (tie in point) only as high as your bottom piece while your belayer keeps tension on you. But if your a ways from the belay and top piece pulls, the stretch in the rope will be more than the length of your daisy. Might be enough to prevent a FF2.

Unclipping your daisy from the lower may be the only way to avoid a FF2 sometimes.


jkd159


Apr 10, 2010, 9:43 AM
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I've always worried about this exact problem. I tried putting a screamer between the daisy and my harness, but that just creates more of a cluster in an area which already has way too much going on.

So two solutions:

1) Get as low as possible to test. I usually place from the second step, and the top step when possible. But then I drop down to test. Grab the bottom step of the etrier on the new piece and do a pullup. If it blows you still take maybe a FF1 on your lower daisy, but that beats FF2.

2) Climb with one free etrier. I have one etrier on each daisy (some people climb with two on each, I've done it and find it to be overkill). You can keep a third etrier on the back of your harness and use it when: A) You need two etriers on a piece to keep your balance; B) Switch to the third etrier and unclip your daisy (and clip the rope) from the lower piece when testing a suspect higher piece.

You could also climb without daisy chains as one poster suggests. I don't do this because of the risk of dropping gear, but I think it would work well if you keep a good grip on your etriers. If you do this, get an adjustable fifi for resting when necessary.


USnavy


Apr 12, 2010, 9:56 PM
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I may have figured out the answer to my own question. When I am aiding I always have my fifi hook (biner actually) clipped straight into the cam / nut and I am either top stepping or in the third step (on a regular aider). So when I shift my weight over onto the high piece, I disconnect the lower aider before I disconnect my fifi hook that way if the piece blows I only fall a few inches on the hook instead of three feet onto the daisy chain. But that requires hooking into the cam versus the biner attached to the daisy and aider which is a bit more work.


Guran


Apr 13, 2010, 3:28 AM
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I don't aid much, but when I do I use two aiders, one daisy.

I clip the daisy to the upper aider before I test the piece.
If I need to, I put a 120cm sling on the bottom of that aider so I can bounce test without standing high on my previous piece (so I don't need a daisy on that one once I've placed my next piece)
If my lower daisy is on a hook (ie if I don't bother to clip the rope to it) I also clip a sling temporarily to the lower aider in case that placement blows)

A system not wired for speed or hard aid, obviously, but quite foolproof.


graniteboy


Apr 16, 2010, 12:54 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)? [In reply to]
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US Navy, I give you a failing grade on understanding the basic high school physics of this situation.
Due to the fact that the falling object (climber) is only falling maybe a meter, taking much less than a second to do so, (let's say about a quarter of a second as a rough guess, although we could get all fancy and calculate it) there is no way in hell that 24KN can be developed in this scenario, as you stated above someplace. Let's put our thinking caps on. 24 KN is what you can generate when you're flying 30 or 40 feet, and then coming to an abrupt stop in a FF2 fall.
sheesh.


MS1


Apr 16, 2010, 1:38 PM
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Re: [graniteboy] Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)? [In reply to]
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graniteboy wrote:
US Navy, I give you a failing grade on understanding the basic high school physics of this situation.
Due to the fact that the falling object (climber) is only falling maybe a meter, taking much less than a second to do so, (let's say about a quarter of a second as a rough guess, although we could get all fancy and calculate it) there is no way in hell that 24KN can be developed in this scenario, as you stated above someplace. Let's put our thinking caps on. 24 KN is what you can generate when you're flying 30 or 40 feet, and then coming to an abrupt stop in a FF2 fall.
sheesh.

I don't think you are qualified to hand out grades in this subject.

In reply to:
The results of the sling drops were startling. Brand-new, 22-inch-long 8mm, sewn spectra runners, CEN rated to nearly 5,000 pounds, broke at the end of their 44-inch fall (a grim testament to the forces you can achieve when you fall directly onto a sling). Interestingly, nylon runners, even old faded ones scrounged off desert towers, subjected to the same test did not break, although the shock loads were still over two tons. Attribute the nylon slings’ durability to the material itself. Nylon, even when it is woven into a static weave, such as that in a runner, stretches some. Spectra, meanwhile, is like steel and does not stretch—it breaks.

So a four-foot FF2 fall can certainly break a high-strength, low-stretch sling. Want to read more?

http://www.swaygogear.com/...icfalls/default.html


majid_sabet


Apr 16, 2010, 1:42 PM
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Re: [USnavy] Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)? [In reply to]
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At FF 1.5 most common daisy will fail and I got tons of images of how they end up in such falls. The 1" old school daisy and the purcell prussic are the only two links which may survive at higher FF.

The Purcell prussic by far is the superior to all daisy in FF 1 or above .


shimanilami


Apr 16, 2010, 4:29 PM
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Ignore everything in the above posts. They don't know what they're talking about. Here's the straight dope.

If you suspect your newly placed piece is dicey, then clip the rope through the piece you're standing on and unclip your daisy from the aider. Thus, if you stand up on the new piece and it blows, then the rope - not your daisy - will catch you. And because you clipped the rope through the previous piece, your aiders are secured. Just don't forget to grab your aiders as you continue up.

This sequence is a hassle because it adds an extra step - i.e. you have to unclip the daisy first, and then retrieve your aider second. I never use it unless I think my new piece is dicey.


(This post was edited by shimanilami on Apr 16, 2010, 4:30 PM)


graniteboy


Apr 16, 2010, 4:46 PM
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Re: [shimanilami] Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)? [In reply to]
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Yes, shimani. True that.
And yes, if you're an idiot and using a no stretch daisy, then you get what you deserve.

However, a climber still can't generate 24KN in a 3 foot fall. Physically impossible, unless he's being shot out of a cannon pointed directly downward. I do, however, encourage USnavy to try this.
I'll do the math for y'all later, because navy's claim of 24 KN is way the hell off, and I have climbing and beer drinking to do right now.


ptlong


Apr 16, 2010, 5:03 PM
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Re: [MS1] Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)? [In reply to]
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MS1 wrote:
Duane Raleigh (in a Rock and Ice article) wrote:
The results of the sling drops were startling. Brand-new, 22-inch-long 8mm, sewn spectra runners, CEN rated to nearly 5,000 pounds, broke at the end of their 44-inch fall (a grim testament to the forces you can achieve when you fall directly onto a sling). Interestingly, nylon runners, even old faded ones scrounged off desert towers, subjected to the same test did not break, although the shock loads were still over two tons. Attribute the nylon slings’ durability to the material itself. Nylon, even when it is woven into a static weave, such as that in a runner, stretches some. Spectra, meanwhile, is like steel and does not stretch—it breaks.

So a four-foot FF2 fall can certainly break a high-strength, low-stretch sling. Want to read more?

http://www.swaygogear.com/...icfalls/default.html

MS1, you left out this important part from the R&I article:

"For the sling and daisy chain drops, a 165-pound weight volunteered to take my place. The caveat to comparing one to the other is the human body is gelatinous and absorbs energy. A climbing harness also has some load-absorbing capacity. Replacing the body in a harness with a dead weight will increase the forces in any drop test. Nevertheless, it gives indicates how equipment when pushed to its limits will behave in the real world."

In other words, their test did NOT replicate what would happen to a real climber in a harness.


ptlong


Apr 16, 2010, 5:09 PM
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shimanilami wrote:
If you suspect your newly placed piece is dicey, then clip the rope through the piece you're standing on and unclip your daisy from the aider.... I never use it unless I think my new piece is dicey.

So for the beginner aid climber the risk is misjudging a dicey piece as bomber and not taking this precaution when they should.

I took two daisy falls on a couple of the first walls I did in this way. By the way, they were both about factor 1 and my daisies were spectra. They caused a bit a of jolt and some surprise, but that's all


trapdoor


Apr 16, 2010, 6:02 PM
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1.) your in your aiders standing on a piece. the rope is not clipped in yet.

2.) get as high as you can and place another piece, bounce test etc.

3.) move onto the top piece and reach down and unclip your lower aider and clip the rope into the lower piece of gear.

if yo do it like this your chance of falling onto a daisy chain is very slight. especially on easy aid with good gear.


shimanilami


Apr 16, 2010, 11:46 PM
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trapdoor wrote:
3.) move onto the top piece and reach down and unclip your lower aider and clip the rope into the lower piece of gear.

No. You've got to clip the rope and remove your daisy before you move to the new piece. Otherwise, if the new piece blows, then you'll fall on your daisy.

trapdoor wrote:
...if you do it like this your chance of falling onto a daisy chain is very slight....

If you do it like this and fall, then your chances of falling on your daisy are 100%.

trapdoor wrote:
...especially on easy aid with good gear.
Does anyone ever fall on easy aid with good gear!? What the hell are you talking about?


MS1


Apr 17, 2010, 6:55 AM
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ptlong wrote:
MS1 wrote:
Duane Raleigh (in a Rock and Ice article) wrote:
The results of the sling drops were startling. Brand-new, 22-inch-long 8mm, sewn spectra runners, CEN rated to nearly 5,000 pounds, broke at the end of their 44-inch fall (a grim testament to the forces you can achieve when you fall directly onto a sling). Interestingly, nylon runners, even old faded ones scrounged off desert towers, subjected to the same test did not break, although the shock loads were still over two tons. Attribute the nylon slings’ durability to the material itself. Nylon, even when it is woven into a static weave, such as that in a runner, stretches some. Spectra, meanwhile, is like steel and does not stretch—it breaks.

So a four-foot FF2 fall can certainly break a high-strength, low-stretch sling. Want to read more?

http://www.swaygogear.com/...icfalls/default.html

MS1, you left out this important part from the R&I article:

"For the sling and daisy chain drops, a 165-pound weight volunteered to take my place. The caveat to comparing one to the other is the human body is gelatinous and absorbs energy. A climbing harness also has some load-absorbing capacity. Replacing the body in a harness with a dead weight will increase the forces in any drop test. Nevertheless, it gives indicates how equipment when pushed to its limits will behave in the real world."

In other words, their test did NOT replicate what would happen to a real climber in a harness.

No, but it provided good evidence that very high forces can be generated in a short fall onto a very-low-stretch sling. If you have actual test results regarding the degree to which human body "squishiness" lowers the force involved in a similar drop test onto dyneema, feel free to throw us a link. (But note that the fact that the forces are lower does not mean that the slings wouldn't break in a similar test; all the R&I test told us is that the forces exceeded 5,000 pounds-force, so we don't know how much greater the forces actually were.) But my point was only that graniteboy was very wrong: a short FF2 onto low-stretch tethers can generate much higher forces than a long FF2 onto a dynamic climbing rope.

Anyway, the issue isn't just the risk that you might break a daisy chain (you are, after all, still attached to a rope). Even if the daisy will hold, you might want to spare your kidneys the special feeling of falling onto one.


giza


Apr 17, 2010, 7:45 AM
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If you're concerned about this get yourself a set of daisies with built-in screamers. Yates used to make these - sure they're still available.

If every placement is being tested then there's no reason to be falling, especially on easy terrain. If you're falling on C1 you're doing something wrong. No offense intended by this, but you're essentially engineering your way up a line using direct aid so rigorously test each piece so that you're confident to advance.


kobaz


Apr 17, 2010, 7:56 AM
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USnavy wrote:
It's the steps I have put in bold that I am referring to. Once you fully shift your weight to the top piece you can no longer use the lower aider to catch you if the top piece pulls as you’re no longer standing on it.

Which is why you keep a foot on the lower aider while transferring. I've prevented a daisy fall many times because I was still standing with one foot (or close to standing) on the lower piece when the top one blew. By close to standing I mean that 100% of your weight is on the top piece, but you have a leg hovering in the loop of an aider, which will automagically step down (assuming you keep your posture) if the above piece blows.


kobaz


Apr 17, 2010, 7:59 AM
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Registered: Sep 19, 2004
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Re: [shimanilami] Question about basic direct aid (avoiding FF2 falls onto your daisy)? [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
No. You've got to clip the rope and remove your daisy before you move to the new piece. Otherwise, if the new piece blows, then you'll fall on your daisy.

How exactly do you unclip your daisy while top stepping?

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