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brian.a.paden
Apr 4, 2010, 5:09 PM
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So I went sport climbing yesterday with an aquaintance from the gym. While climbing some easier routes I noticed he was short roping me a lot and not paying much attention. Later on when I was climbing a challenging route I fell and ended up falling 30 ft farther than I should have. My partner who was using a grigri had some excuse about the rope not being flaked properly. Im interested to hear what others have to say about whether a grigri is safe and about how to select a trustworthy climbing partner.
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styndall
Apr 4, 2010, 6:02 PM
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brian.a.paden wrote: So I went sport climbing yesterday with an aquaintance from the gym. While climbing some easier routes I noticed he was short roping me a lot and not paying much attention. Later on when I was climbing a challenging route I fell and ended up falling 30 ft farther than I should have. My partner who was using a grigri had some excuse about the rope not being flaked properly. Im interested to hear what others have to say about whether a grigri is safe and about how to select a trustworthy climbing partner.
Well, you noticed, from his belaying, that he didn't know how to use the thing. Climbing with someone you know to be unsafe isn't very smart.
A GriGri is a really great device in the hands of someone who knows how to use it, and any belay device is unsafe in the hands of someone ignorant of its function.
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shockabuku
Apr 4, 2010, 6:05 PM
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Belaying well with a Grigri takes some practice and understanding of good technique. Once you have those however, it is an outstanding device for sport climbing.
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jager824
Apr 4, 2010, 6:12 PM
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I too have had that experience. I ended up about 10 feet off the deck because he'd held the camming action that pinches the rope from closing. I'll try to describe it-- he had his left hand on the grigri with his thumb holding it "open" to allow the rope to run smoothly. When I fell he was waiting for the "automatic" locking of the grigri and held his thumb over the mechanism which stops a running rope. The problem was due to inadequate practice and experience with the grigri.
The excuse with the short roping could also be due to improper training with the grigri. ...if you think back, could you always feel belayer tension? or only when you were pulling rope for the clip? IF for the clip.... I'd think it's the belayers fault... they should be minding the rope to make sure it runs smooth when you need it. And any excuse that the rope is flaked improperly is also their fault.
Get to know people before you just hand them your life on the end of a rope... build a relationship just as you would a babysitter. Give them a little bit of trust, test it, and build on that. Don't just hand them the keys to your house as your leaving town and say, "see you when I get back!" Do some TR, see how they manage, maybe watch them belay someone else? ask them about their experience. You've gotta use discernment when working with new partners. If he seems like a reckless vandal, just don't call him back.
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ClimbClimb
Apr 5, 2010, 12:15 AM
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I think you really have to consider both the person's general background (are they generally responsible and posessing of mechanical common sense?) and climbing background. Other than that, it's like the other person said -- it's like any other relationship. Some people are just very "laid back" and others are just very "clueless", either one being potentially risky.
I don't use a GriGri myself, but have certainly been happily belayed by GriGri users with no problems.
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mhix13
Apr 5, 2010, 6:01 AM
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How many times had you seen this guy belay? Did you question his background about belaying with that particular device? Did you do enough super easy routes where you could climb but also observe this guys belay technique while on the route? The fact that he got defensive about his mistake is a huge red flag.
Seems like a lot of supervising but its ur life on the sharp end until you're comfortable with them belaying you. Gotta be super anal (imo) with new belay partners. Good to hear you didn't deck.
Seems like this happens every now and then. People accidently lock the cam open on the grigri because they see the leader falling and freeze with their hand on the brake-lever-thing. If you want more info. about the "suggested" way to belay with a grigri petzl has vids on their site.
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jt512
Apr 5, 2010, 6:05 AM
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mhix13 wrote: The fact that he got defensive about his mistake is a huge red flag.
Um, the fact that he made the mistake is a huge red flag.
Jay
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mhix13
Apr 5, 2010, 6:18 AM
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while you are correct Jay, anyone can make a mistake. dropping someone 30 feet is a bigger one to make than others but everyone slips up.
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jt512
Apr 5, 2010, 6:35 AM
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mhix13 wrote: while you are correct Jay, anyone can make a mistake. dropping someone 30 feet is a bigger one to make than others but everyone slips up.
Dropping someone 30 feet too far is inexcusable. The ground is often closer than 30 feet too far.
Jay
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adam14113
Apr 5, 2010, 6:47 AM
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30 feet is a HUGE mess up.
It goes without saying that there is little room for slip-ups, especially on something like belaying that can be taught thoroughly. Belaying is one of the last things someone should make a mistake doing, regardless if the person decks or not. Liken it to learning how to land an airplane.
Your acquaintance doesn't have a good excuse. And it would have been more respectable of him to have been honest about the causes and prevention so it doesn't happen again. Someone needs to guide him through proper belaying and rope handling issues before someone gets hurt.
(This post was edited by adam14113 on Apr 5, 2010, 6:53 AM)
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roninthorne
Apr 5, 2010, 12:51 PM
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Sport climbing with a grigri isn't something I advise. The problems outweigh the benefits, IMHO. Nothing like having it jam with the leader's hand (and a yard of slack) one inch from a desperate clip... something I've never had happen with a tube-type device.
And not having the rope properly flaked would have made him catch you sooner (because of the jam-up) than later.
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brian.a.paden
Apr 5, 2010, 1:38 PM
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Thanks for the feedback. I don't think I'll be climbing with this guy again. and I'll be more careful about who I go climbing with.
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MS1
Apr 5, 2010, 2:08 PM
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roninthorne wrote: Sport climbing with a grigri isn't something I advise. The problems outweigh the benefits, IMHO. Nothing like having it jam with the leader's hand (and a yard of slack) one inch from a desperate clip... something I've never had happen with a tube-type device.
You are doing it wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/...=aSVchbjVKLE#t=3m50s
If you know how to use a gri-gri, short-roping a leader is user error, plain and simple.
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maldaly
Apr 5, 2010, 2:16 PM
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There are great instructions for how to kill your partner with a Grigri or a Cinch here:
http://splitterclimbinggear.com/Locking_Assist_Falls.html
It's tricky: there is more than one way to defeat the mechanism of either device but if you study this video hard, you, too, can drop your partner.
Seriously folks, these are complex devices that require training, practice and attention in order to use right.
There are lots of other helpful videos on that site. Spend some time with it.
Climb safe,
Mal
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jt512
Apr 5, 2010, 2:39 PM
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roninthorne wrote: Sport climbing with a grigri isn't something I advise.
That's inane.
Jay
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malcolm777b
Apr 5, 2010, 3:12 PM
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roninthorne wrote: Sport climbing with a grigri isn't something I advise.
This is somewhat of a blanket statement don't you think? Practice with the GriGri a little and you'll realize that once you get the hang of it (and it is harder to learn than a tube style device), that you can toss yards of slack MUCH faster. If you're getting short-roped, that means your belayer is not well versed in GriGri use.
I personally prefer to take a belay based on what device the belayer is most experienced with. If that's a GriGri, great.
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bill413
Apr 5, 2010, 3:16 PM
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That Petzl vid has them using a nice rope - well suited for feeding. With older, fuzzier ropes, you may have to hold the device to pull through - but no big deal.
If your belay technique is sound, learning to use a GriGri to belay a leader is pretty easy. If your belay technique is not sound, no device will make you safe.
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olderic
Apr 5, 2010, 3:19 PM
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jt512 wrote: roninthorne wrote: Sport climbing with a grigri isn't something I advise. That's inane. Jay
My goodness - I agree with Jay. If you aren't going to use it sport climbing pray tell when are you going to use it?
Seems like a lot of people are accepting "30 feet" as the gospel. The length of whippers grows like the one that got away. Maybe its fact but given the general level of competence demonstrated by all concerened here (ok - Jay is not incompetent - just annoying) I have my doubts.
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rockforlife
Apr 5, 2010, 3:48 PM
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malcolm777b wrote: roninthorne wrote: Sport climbing with a grigri isn't something I advise. This is somewhat of a blanket statement don't you think? Practice with the GriGri a little and you'll realize that once you get the hang of it (and it is harder to learn than a tube style device), that you can toss yards of slack MUCH faster. If you're getting short-roped, that means your belayer is not well versed in GriGri use. I personally prefer to take a belay based on what device the belayer is most experienced with. If that's a GriGri, great.
B.S. I don't care who you are you can not feed out rope faster with a gri gri, over a tube style device. I have seen many people belay with both, and have done so my self.(the right way)
But when all is said and done, a reverso, etc, will always be quicker.
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shockabuku
Apr 5, 2010, 4:03 PM
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rockforlife wrote: malcolm777b wrote: roninthorne wrote: Sport climbing with a grigri isn't something I advise. This is somewhat of a blanket statement don't you think? Practice with the GriGri a little and you'll realize that once you get the hang of it (and it is harder to learn than a tube style device), that you can toss yards of slack MUCH faster. If you're getting short-roped, that means your belayer is not well versed in GriGri use. I personally prefer to take a belay based on what device the belayer is most experienced with. If that's a GriGri, great. B.S. I don't care who you are you can not feed out rope faster with a gri gri, over a tube style device. I have seen many people belay with both, and have done so my self.(the right way) But when all is said and done, a reverso, etc, will always be quicker.
Your ignorance is showing. You might want to tuck it in.
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jeepnphreak
Apr 5, 2010, 4:04 PM
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brian.a.paden wrote: So I went sport climbing yesterday with an aquaintance from the gym. While climbing some easier routes I noticed he was short roping me a lot and not paying much attention. Later on when I was climbing a challenging route I fell and ended up falling 30 ft farther than I should have. My partner who was using a grigri had some excuse about the rope not being flaked properly. Im interested to hear what others have to say about whether a grigri is safe and about how to select a trustworthy climbing partner.
I would say your friend is an idiot and needs a bit for training on proper use of a grigri.
My wife has been belaying me with her grigri for 10 seasons now. I rearley ever feel her on the rope cliping ect. I have taken many falls and evey one of them has been cought just superbly. Most of my friends useing tube devices dont belay me as smooth. I know that grigris are just fine and when properly used are a very safe device. Rember that no belay device is 100% moron proof, you just have to know how to use it and get the proper training form a relaiable source/pro.
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karmiclimber
Apr 5, 2010, 4:20 PM
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Agreed. How could someone put their life in the hands of someone else without better communication about belaying? My feet would not have been off the ground before watching the rope be flaked (or doing it myself) and asking about my partner's gri-gri or belaying experience in general. And the first time I clipped and there was tugging, I would take and have a conversation with my belayer. You can't just assume...its your life, be proactive, etc.
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jt512
Apr 5, 2010, 4:52 PM
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rockforlife wrote: malcolm777b wrote: roninthorne wrote: Sport climbing with a grigri isn't something I advise. This is somewhat of a blanket statement don't you think? Practice with the GriGri a little and you'll realize that once you get the hang of it (and it is harder to learn than a tube style device), that you can toss yards of slack MUCH faster. If you're getting short-roped, that means your belayer is not well versed in GriGri use. I personally prefer to take a belay based on what device the belayer is most experienced with. If that's a GriGri, great. B.S. I don't care who you are you can not feed out rope faster with a gri gri, over a tube style device.
You are simply wrong. Used properly, you can pay out slack faster with a grigri than with a tube-style belay device, assuming your rope is ~10.2 mm or less, and in good condition. The reason for this is simple: with the cam open, there is less friction with the grigri than with a tube-style device, even with the ropes held *gasp* parallel.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 5, 2010, 4:58 PM)
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jt512
Apr 5, 2010, 5:29 PM
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This video is pretty bad. Methods 1 and 2 in the video are virtually identical. Method 4, if done properly, is safe and effective. The video fails to show the most dangerous mistake with a grigri of all: holding the cam open with the non-brake hand, while using the brake hand on the lead strand to pay out rope. And the warning not to wear gloves while using an auto-assist belay device is astonishingly stupid.
Jay
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