|
|
|
|
shu2kill
Apr 15, 2010, 2:17 PM
Post #1 of 28
(12556 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2008
Posts: 352
|
well, a friend showed up the day before yesterday at my house with some glue in anchors he wanted to pull test. so we went to a huge boulder (not climbable, just a big rock) near my home, and drilled a 1/2" hole. we had never installed glue ins before, so we did as the instructions said. we drilled a 1/2" hole to install a 3/8" bolt (it was actually 10 mm). then cleaned the hole very well, poured in the glue, and inserted the bolt as if we were screwing it in. the bolt looked like a 100 mm piece of threaded rod, but wa sold as "glue in anchor" for about $1.50 each. then we let it rest for 24 hours.
so yesterday, we went there with my jeep, which has a Warn M8000 winch rated @ 8000 lbs, and weights a little more than 2 tons. we installed a Fixe hanger rated @ 22 kn, and then we oriented the jeep to pull in almost perfect tension, straight out. as i began pulling, the jeep's suspension lowered a lot. then, the jeep began pulling forward, even with the brake pedal completely at the bottom. after the jeep was pulled about 4 feet, i decided it was enough for my jeep, i was actually afraid of messing with the brakes or something. so i stopped the winch. but my friends told me to pull a little more. so i did, and all of a sudden something let go. i was sure the bolt had unglued and was out of the stone. but as i was exiting the jeep, someone yelled "come and see, we broke the hanger!!"
i have read and heard a lot of concern about quality of the rock, quality of the bolts, proper installation, etc. it seems to me that the risk is if you mess with the installation of a good bolt, maybe braking the stone around it, or braking the bolt by overtorque. or, if you install a bad bolt in a good location and with good technique. however i had never heard nor read anything where they mention possibly braking a hanger while the bolt remains intact.
and, the bolt and glue were purchased locally from a hardware store. the glue is like $25 and the threaded rod is like $1.50. yesterday morning my friend got a 1 meter rod of 3/8 SS for $5. so yesterday after braking the hanger, we did another hole and glued a 100 mm piece of that SS. today we are going to pull it to see how it holds...
so, what do you think?? why did the 1 ton glue held while the 22 kn (about 2.2 ton) hanger broke??
heres the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njSE3GSKgwc&fmt=18
EDIT TO ADD: we live in Mexico, and we found the materials locally. and, english is my second language, so if anything is confusing or something, let me know and ill try to rephrase it or explain it better...
(This post was edited by shu2kill on Apr 15, 2010, 2:19 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
roughster
Apr 15, 2010, 2:48 PM
Post #2 of 28
(12535 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 3, 2002
Posts: 4003
|
Not surprised. Bolts set correctly, whether mechanical or chemical, are almost never the "weak link". Even shitty rock is a lot stronger than most people realize.
I purposely tried to pull a bolt that I felt sucked and was a spinner just to see how much it would take. I had a funkness and a crowbar with me. After about 2 hours of non-stop work I gave up and undid the hanger and pounded the bolt in.
This was at an area that most people feel the rock is about as chossy as can be and still be climbable aka soft volcanic tuff.
|
|
|
|
|
shu2kill
Apr 15, 2010, 2:53 PM
Post #3 of 28
(12522 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2008
Posts: 352
|
roughster wrote: Not surprised. Bolts set correctly, whether mechanical or chemical, are almost never the "weak link". Even shitty rock is a lot stronger than most people realize. I purposely tried to pull a bolt that I felt sucked and was a spinner just to see how much it would take. I had a funkness and a crowbar with me. After about 2 hours of non-stop work I gave up and undid the hanger and pounded the bolt in. This was at an area that most people feel the rock is about as chossy as can be and still be climbable aka soft volcanic tuff.
well, we were surprised because this is the first chemical anchor we ever place. besides, the materials are from a local hardware store, and i have read a lot of comments that say "dont buy from your local home depot". and, the glue is rated at only 1 ton....
|
|
|
|
|
shockabuku
Apr 15, 2010, 3:47 PM
Post #4 of 28
(12461 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
|
I suspect the hanger broke because you torqued it in a way that it's probably not designed to hold a load.
|
|
|
|
|
shu2kill
Apr 15, 2010, 3:57 PM
Post #5 of 28
(12446 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2008
Posts: 352
|
well, we pulled almost straight out, trying to extract the bolt, not shear it.
so do you suggest we try to shear the bolt instead??
|
|
|
|
|
shoo
Apr 15, 2010, 4:00 PM
Post #6 of 28
(12440 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 22, 2006
Posts: 1501
|
shu2kill wrote: well, we pulled almost straight out, trying to extract the bolt, not shear it. so do you suggest we try to shear the bolt instead??
Yes.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Apr 15, 2010, 4:02 PM
Post #7 of 28
(12437 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
shu2kill wrote: well, we pulled almost straight out, trying to extract the bolt, not shear it. so do you suggest we try to shear the bolt instead??
You may end up with your Jeep hanging on the side of a cliff!
Ever see the Gods They Must Be Crazy?
A jeep ends up in a tree, hoisted by its own petard (or winch!)
You fellers place good bolt!
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Apr 15, 2010, 4:05 PM
Post #8 of 28
(12430 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
BTW, the proscription against hardware store hardware comes in two forms:
1. A lot of US hardware stores simply don't sell the bolts we climbers tend to use. They sell bolts that merely LOOK like them and many folks cannot easily tell them apart.
2. The quality control of overseas hardware mfgs is suspect, to say the least. This is the sort of hardware we see in Home Depot here, and Lowes.
I still use some of it; chains, quick links, etc.
But I am reckless (and cheap)! I get my bolts from a fastener distributor (torque, not glue-in)
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
shu2kill
Apr 15, 2010, 4:06 PM
Post #9 of 28
(12429 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2008
Posts: 352
|
shoo wrote: shu2kill wrote: well, we pulled almost straight out, trying to extract the bolt, not shear it. so do you suggest we try to shear the bolt instead?? Yes.
ok, today we will try that with the same bolt we already used and with the stainless one we glued yesterday..
|
|
|
|
|
shu2kill
Apr 15, 2010, 4:09 PM
Post #10 of 28
(12422 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2008
Posts: 352
|
dingus wrote: You may end up with your Jeep hanging on the side of a cliff! Ever see the Gods They Must Be Crazy? A jeep ends up in a tree, hoisted by its own petard (or winch!) You fellers place good bolt! DMT
hahaha. i have seen jeeps lifted by their own winches. since the jeep weights 2 tons and the winchs capacity is almost 4, its easy to do that...
so, would you take a 15 feet leader fall on the bolt im talking about???
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Apr 15, 2010, 4:11 PM
Post #11 of 28
(12417 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
shu2kill wrote: dingus wrote: You may end up with your Jeep hanging on the side of a cliff! Ever see the Gods They Must Be Crazy? A jeep ends up in a tree, hoisted by its own petard (or winch!) You fellers place good bolt! DMT hahaha. i have seen jeeps lifted by their own winches. since the jeep weights 2 tons and the winchs capacity is almost 4, its easy to do that... so, would you take a 15 feet leader fall on the bolt im talking about???
Not in a jeep I wouldn't!!!11111
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
shu2kill
Apr 15, 2010, 4:12 PM
Post #12 of 28
(12412 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2008
Posts: 352
|
dingus wrote: BTW, the proscription against hardware store hardware comes in two forms: 1. A lot of US hardware stores simply don't sell the bolts we climbers tend to use. They sell bolts that merely LOOK like them and many folks cannot easily tell them apart. 2. The quality control of overseas hardware mfgs is suspect, to say the least. This is the sort of hardware we see in Home Depot here, and Lowes. I still use some of it; chains, quick links, etc. But I am reckless (and cheap)! I get my bolts from a fastener distributor (torque, not glue-in) DMT
i have seen those fastener at home depot (yes, we have that store here in Mexico too) and they look more or less the same, but the specs are very different. so i wouldnt use those. however, as you say, we do use chain and quicklinks from any hardware store.
and, what fastener distributor do you use?? have you tried www.sleeve-type-anchors.com ??
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Apr 15, 2010, 4:28 PM
Post #13 of 28
(12385 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
http://www.concretefasteners.com/
They provide spec sheets, etc. They have install guides and even how to videos.
DMT
(This post was edited by dingus on Apr 15, 2010, 4:28 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
climbryn
Apr 15, 2010, 4:38 PM
Post #14 of 28
(12372 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 31
|
Found this yesturday, seems to have really good prices on bulk orders and only carries equipment used for climbing.
http://renobclimbing.com/
(This post was edited by climbryn on Apr 15, 2010, 5:02 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
ryanb
Apr 15, 2010, 4:58 PM
Post #15 of 28
(12357 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 4, 2004
Posts: 832
|
I think glue is "rated" per contact area... probably something like 1 ton per square inch or something.
Threaded rod comes in different grades which you should be aware of as well.
|
|
|
|
|
shu2kill
Apr 15, 2010, 5:16 PM
Post #16 of 28
(12340 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2008
Posts: 352
|
that page looks really similar to this one:
http://www.confast.com/
they also provide spec sheets, and in fact the part numbers are the same. i just bought 125 sleeve bolts in 1/2" x 3" and 25 in 1/2" x 4" for the top anchors from them. the price is also exactly the same....
|
|
|
|
|
shu2kill
Apr 15, 2010, 5:20 PM
Post #17 of 28
(12334 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2008
Posts: 352
|
ryanb wrote: I think glue is "rated" per contact area... probably something like 1 ton per square inch or something. Threaded rod comes in different grades which you should be aware of as well.
the one we used is grade 5. but the stainless we placed yesterday, they dont have grade, so im not sure what it is. we will see today how it holds...
|
|
|
|
|
JimTitt
Apr 16, 2010, 6:36 AM
Post #18 of 28
(12227 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 7, 2008
Posts: 1002
|
We would expect virtually any hanger to break before the bolt in the circumstances you describe. With a 10mm threaded rod of reasonable quality you would be getting a failure at around 35-38kN and most hangers let go before this especially in the axial pull as they only require 15kN for EN959.
You don´t say what glue you used (technically this isn´t a glue but we all call it that) but for cheapo polyester you are looking at 5N/mm˛ and for an epoxy acrylate 10-12N/mm˛. Pure epoxy gets up to ca.15N/mm˛. 10mm dia = 31.42mm circumference X 100m depth = 3142mm˛ X 8N/mm˛ (vinylester for example) gives a pull-out resistance of 25kN and for something like Hilti Hit 500 you can double that.
You can read all about the theory and everything else concerning bolts on my useful website! www.bolt-products.com.
|
|
|
|
|
dingus
Apr 16, 2010, 12:08 PM
Post #19 of 28
(12162 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Dec 16, 2002
Posts: 17398
|
Jim that site of yourn is a treasure chest of information. THANKS! I don't have a need for glue-ins but if I did I'd be knocking at your door, dude. And despite not needing glue ins I book marked it so I could go back and study all the OTHER information you make available.
Very impressed. Thanks again!
DMT
|
|
|
|
|
shu2kill
Apr 16, 2010, 1:41 PM
Post #20 of 28
(12119 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2008
Posts: 352
|
JimTitt wrote: We would expect virtually any hanger to break before the bolt in the circumstances you describe. With a 10mm threaded rod of reasonable quality you would be getting a failure at around 35-38kN and most hangers let go before this especially in the axial pull as they only require 15kN for EN959. You don´t say what glue you used (technically this isn´t a glue but we all call it that) but for cheapo polyester you are looking at 5N/mm˛ and for an epoxy acrylate 10-12N/mm˛. Pure epoxy gets up to ca.15N/mm˛. 10mm dia = 31.42mm circumference X 100m depth = 3142mm˛ X 8N/mm˛ (vinylester for example) gives a pull-out resistance of 25kN and for something like Hilti Hit 500 you can double that. You can read all about the theory and everything else concerning bolts on my useful website! www.bolt-products.com.
hey, thanx for the info!!
the glue we used is a Fester/Henkel product, Resistol CF 890. we bought it locally for $25, so i was not expecting much of it. we bought it to do some tests, to see how you have to put it without making a lot of mess, etc. the one we are considering costs a little more, but according to the specs holds twice as much. i think that would be enough....
btw we are just experimenting right now, as we have 150 sleeve bolts to put first. but we want to know how chemical anchors work in case we encounter softer rock or something...
thanx!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
shu2kill
Apr 16, 2010, 7:06 PM
Post #22 of 28
(12035 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2008
Posts: 352
|
thanx
|
|
|
|
|
USnavy
Apr 19, 2010, 1:09 PM
Post #23 of 28
(11907 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
|
climbryn wrote: Found this yesturday, seems to have really good prices on bulk orders and only carries equipment used for climbing. http://renobclimbing.com/
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 19, 2010, 1:18 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
USnavy
Apr 19, 2010, 1:12 PM
Post #24 of 28
(11904 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
|
shu2kill wrote: ryanb wrote: I think glue is "rated" per contact area... probably something like 1 ton per square inch or something. Threaded rod comes in different grades which you should be aware of as well. the one we used is grade 5. but the stainless we placed yesterday, they dont have grade, so im not sure what it is. we will see today how it holds...
|
|
|
|
|
shu2kill
Apr 19, 2010, 2:47 PM
Post #25 of 28
(11876 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 9, 2008
Posts: 352
|
USnavy wrote: shu2kill wrote: ryanb wrote: I think glue is "rated" per contact area... probably something like 1 ton per square inch or something. Threaded rod comes in different grades which you should be aware of as well. the one we used is grade 5. but the stainless we placed yesterday, they dont have grade, so im not sure what it is. we will see today how it holds... Grade 304 and 316 stainless is generally about as strong as grade five. The stainless machine bolts I tested were about 3% stronger then grade five, but it all depends on the stainless you are using.
thats what we were told at the store, that the stainless threaded rod we got would be almost equivalent to grade 5... however it was my friend the 0ne who bought it, so i dont know if its 304 or 316...
thanx!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
1
