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CMTomasetti
Apr 16, 2010, 12:42 PM
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Registered: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 44
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Hey Everyone,
Thanks for checking out out website! We'd like to extend an offer to all rockclimbing.com users for 15% off their first purchase of our holds.
Attached is a fancy coupon you can look at, but the way it works is that when you are checking out just type RC41610 in the comments and you'll receive the discounted price.
As always we offer free shipping and free color requests!
If you have any questions please send me an e-mail at chris@worldcupclimbingholds.com
Cheers,
Chris
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rc_coup.png
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dynosore
Apr 16, 2010, 12:46 PM
Post #2 of 21
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Registered: Jul 29, 2004
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....and your web site is?
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sidepull
Apr 16, 2010, 2:06 PM
Post #5 of 21
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Registered: Sep 11, 2001
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Here's my take. I've never climbed on these holds and I probably never will unless a gym I'm at randomly happens to carry them. Why? How can I be so definitive without handling them?
I've mentioned in other spots that I look for holds that are, in order of priority, tendon-friendly, well thought-out (which means no frivolous eye candy for the sake of eye candy), and well priced. I think World Cup Climbing Holds (we'll call you WCCH) might marginally pass on the last criteria with their coupon.
Here's the deal, none of your holds, excluding the slopers, look tendon friendly. The radii are generally too small to provide a super comfortable grip. This is painfully apparent from just looking at your jug holds (which should be super tendon friendly). FAIL.
Your holds also feature tons of frilly stuff that might be good in a Dr. Suess book, but it's wasted energy here. You're asking people to buy a bunch of ridges that they'll never grab in a useful way. FAIL.
Finally, your line is way too derivative. Basically you look like a wanna-be So Ill. Even the names of some of your holds reek of copy-cat-ism. Don't feel bad, a lot of hold companies, especially new one, have fallen into this trap (but it's a trap none-the-less). FAIL.
I'm not trying to be mean, I'm giving you honest feedback from a consumer that has owned two home walls and really respects the craft of making climbing holds. From that perspective, given your initial offering, I would never buy one of your holds just like I'd never buy an album by a Pink Floyd tribute band.
I'm also not taking this tone just because it's the internet, because it's vogue to flame people, or because it's rc.com. I'm doing it because you note on your website that you encourage feedback from the climbing community. Sorry, no one likes bad feedback, but I can't think of anything nice to see that wouldn't be a half-lie.
Good luck!
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jomagam
Apr 16, 2010, 2:17 PM
Post #6 of 21
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Registered: Nov 10, 2008
Posts: 364
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Sidepull, what makes a hold tendon friendly ? I'm curious.
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climb4free
Apr 16, 2010, 2:27 PM
Post #7 of 21
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Registered: Apr 11, 2007
Posts: 283
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sidepull wrote: Here's my take. I've never climbed on these holds and I probably never will unless a gym I'm at randomly happens to carry them. Why? How can I be so definitive without handling them? I've mentioned in other spots that I look for holds that are, in order of priority, tendon-friendly, well thought-out (which means no frivolous eye candy for the sake of eye candy), and well priced. I think World Cup Climbing Holds (we'll call you WCCH) might marginally pass on the last criteria with their coupon. Here's the deal, none of your holds, excluding the slopers, look tendon friendly. The radii are generally too small to provide a super comfortable grip. This is painfully apparent from just looking at your jug holds (which should be super tendon friendly). FAIL. Your holds also feature tons of frilly stuff that might be good in a Dr. Suess book, but it's wasted energy here. You're asking people to buy a bunch of ridges that they'll never grab in a useful way. FAIL. Finally, your line is way too derivative. Basically you look like a wanna-be So Ill. Even the names of some of your holds reek of copy-cat-ism. Don't feel bad, a lot of hold companies, especially new one, have fallen into this trap (but it's a trap none-the-less). FAIL. I'm not trying to be mean, I'm giving you honest feedback from a consumer that has owned two home walls and really respects the craft of making climbing holds. From that perspective, given your initial offering, I would never buy one of your holds just like I'd never buy an album by a Pink Floyd tribute band. I'm also not taking this tone just because it's the internet, because it's vogue to flame people, or because it's rc.com. I'm doing it because you note on your website that you encourage feedback from the climbing community. Sorry, no one likes bad feedback, but I can't think of anything nice to see that wouldn't be a half-lie. Good luck!
I agree with some of your observations. It is tough to determine based on a couple photo angles exactly how a hold would orient on a wall, but yes some look tweeky and some look "frilly"
I see the ridges and "frilly" stuff as this: some of the wacky designs that are more artistic than functional, ie. ligtbulbs and hands and animal shapes, I would never buy either. But for a normal hold that happens to have ridges to make it look like (not feel like, or use like) a real rock, I say they go ahead and be a little artistic. It is the hold shapers perogative and it doesn't have to cost more to make them that way.
In summation, Function comes 1st, hands down, a little aesthetics after that is good as long as it doesn't cost me.. :)
(This post was edited by climb4free on Apr 16, 2010, 2:29 PM)
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edge
Apr 16, 2010, 2:46 PM
Post #9 of 21
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Registered: Apr 14, 2003
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jomagam wrote: Sidepull, what makes a hold tendon friendly ? I'm curious.
Generally speaking, you want a radius that is large enough to wrap your fingers over without concentrating all of the pressure on a small area between two knuckles.
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CMTomasetti
Apr 16, 2010, 2:59 PM
Post #10 of 21
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Registered: Feb 26, 2007
Posts: 44
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Sidepull, Thanks for you honest feedback. We'll definitely be looking at what you said as we move forward and develop more shapes.
I will say that as far as price goes, our holds are on the lower end of the price:weight ration then most of the other urethane holds out there. It is hard to tell on our website from the pictures (they're deceptive). I'm working on getting weights up there now so it is easier to compare our weight:price to other companies weight:price.
As far as tendon friendly holds go. In my opinion after climbing on them for months at the gym here, i'd say most are ok. I'll admit there are a few edges and crimps that are harder on the tendons b/c you need to use a closed crimp position. The jugs that are up there are also smaller as you mention. We are coming out with big old bucket jugs shortly.
I don't know what to say about the look of the holds. Your right we put a lot of care into making interesting looking holds that are still functional. One thing i think you are wrong with is that it adds extra cost. Artistic design is not used in the price calculations.
Lastly, it's sure sad to hear that your impression is that we copy other companies like so-ill. Definitely not our intent or what we do. Could you be more specific on what give you this impression? I'd love to be able to fix something like that.
Once again thank you very much for your feed back and take care.
Chris
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sidepull
Apr 16, 2010, 4:19 PM
Post #11 of 21
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Registered: Sep 11, 2001
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CMTomasetti wrote: Lastly, it's sure sad to hear that your impression is that we copy other companies like so-ill. Definitely not our intent or what we do. Could you be more specific on what give you this impression? I'd love to be able to fix something like that.
Chris,
I think it's awesome you're offering a discount and I truly hope people from rc.com buy your holds and I'm proven wrong. I also give you props for being willing to take my criticism in stride.
Here are some thoughts about similarities to So Ill:
You have a hold named the "virus" - most of So Ill's holds use medical terminology. The "thing" hold and to a lesser extent the "Krulls" holds feel like, by name, they could fit into the So Ill catalog too.
Also, just look at how some of your shapes compare:
Yours:
Theirs:
Yours:
Theirs:
I'm not at all suggesting that you were consciously copying (although that can be a healthy business strategy) or that all of your holds look exactly like theirs, I'm simply saying I don't look at your holds (other than the pockets - which look really different), and see much creativity.
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rsd212
Apr 16, 2010, 5:29 PM
Post #12 of 21
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Registered: May 12, 2008
Posts: 95
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The holds you posted look nothing alike. You're really stretching here...
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climb4free
Apr 16, 2010, 6:08 PM
Post #13 of 21
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Registered: Apr 11, 2007
Posts: 283
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rsd212 wrote: The holds you posted look nothing alike. You're really stretching here...
And any similarities he noted are the "frilly" stuff he doesn't care for anyway
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johnwesely
Apr 16, 2010, 6:45 PM
Post #14 of 21
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Registered: Jun 13, 2006
Posts: 5360
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climb4free wrote: rsd212 wrote: The holds you posted look nothing alike. You're really stretching here... And any similarities he noted are the "frilly" stuff he doesn't care for anyway
I agree with him that the first ones look vaguely similar, but on the second set, the SoIll's dimples are for show and the World Cup dimples appear to be an integral part of how you use the hold.
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edge
Apr 16, 2010, 7:00 PM
Post #15 of 21
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Registered: Apr 14, 2003
Posts: 9120
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johnwesely wrote: climb4free wrote: rsd212 wrote: The holds you posted look nothing alike. You're really stretching here... And any similarities he noted are the "frilly" stuff he doesn't care for anyway I agree with him that the first ones look vaguely similar, but on the second set, the SoIll's dimples are for show and the World Cup dimples appear to be an integral part of how you use the hold.
They are hand sized pieces of plastic; how many variants of that do you think there are before something begins to look like something else?
There are a ton of hold companies out there, and what eventually will separate the wheat from the chuff is quality, pricing, durability, dependability; hell the same things that makes me choose one airline over another.
In either case, I hate falling out of the sky...
And to the OP, I suppose this is a one time only promo? Henceforth you will need to buy advertising space on RC. Not trying to be dickish, but if every start up flooded the forums...
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sidepull
Apr 17, 2010, 5:15 PM
Post #17 of 21
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Registered: Sep 11, 2001
Posts: 2335
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edge wrote: They are hand sized pieces of plastic; how many variants of that do you think there are before something begins to look like something else?
It's a good thing you weren't coaching Van Gogh or Picasso - "hey it's just paint and canvas, there's no room for doing anything new." Sometimes the most simple resources produce big opportunities for creativity precisely because of the conventional thinking you're demonstrating here - people believe everything new has already been discovered and that's rarely true.
For example, I noted that I think their pockets look very novel, very different. I think if they took some of the design elements from those holds and extended it to the rest of the line then their holds would look more original.
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sidepull
Apr 17, 2010, 5:17 PM
Post #18 of 21
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Registered: Sep 11, 2001
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synrock wrote: jomagam wrote: Sidepull, what makes a hold tendon friendly ? I'm curious. There are two main factors that need to work together to make a hold tendon friendly. Shape - you want a large radius gripping surface that follows the natural curve of the fingers. And when you put weight on the hold you want the force between finger and hold to be evenly distributed along the length of the finger. By having an even force on the finger everywhere along the length of a natural finger curve you increase the skin friction force keeping you on the hold - as opposed to having to over grip. An even force everywhere along the finger curve also acts to press tendon against bone in a way that reduces pulley stresses. Sort of the equivalent of taping. Now, the difficult part in designing a tendon friendly shape is that when you use a hold you don't just pull from one direction. A hold you pull up on may turn into a sidepull or undercling, so you need that tendon friendly radius to exist throughout how use the hold. This results in some pretty goofy looking shapes (for the eyes) illustrated by Synrockholds buckets. [image]http://www.synrockholds.com/bucketCbig.jpg[/image] These shapes are not from a block of carved foam but created from actual climbing forces by fingers pressing against a hard clay-like surface. The other main factor in making a hold tendon friendly is friction. You are going to get a lot more tendon injuries climbing on slick limestone vs. sticky sandstone as skin friction and not squeezing for your life keeps you on the hold. Oh - and if you want to try out some of these things super cheap there are a bunch on ebay right now.
Thanks for the explanation - I thought it was obvious, but I think I value my tendons more than others.
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johnwesely
Apr 17, 2010, 6:02 PM
Post #19 of 21
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synrock wrote: The other main factor in making a hold tendon friendly is friction. You are going to get a lot more tendon injuries climbing on slick limestone vs. sticky sandstone as skin friction and not squeezing for your life keeps you on the hold.
I always figured that it would be the opposite of that because on slick holds, you would lose grip before you could exert enough force to hurt yourself.
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synrock
Apr 17, 2010, 6:16 PM
Post #20 of 21
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Registered: Mar 17, 2004
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johnwesely wrote: synrock wrote: The other main factor in making a hold tendon friendly is friction. You are going to get a lot more tendon injuries climbing on slick limestone vs. sticky sandstone as skin friction and not squeezing for your life keeps you on the hold. I always figured that it would be the opposite of that because on slick holds, you would lose grip before you could exert enough force to hurt yourself.
But that is when the damage occurs - your first reaction when you feel a slip is to crank down harder. On slick rock skin friction doesn't hold you on - it's interlocking. And when you move on a hold interlocking forces can change quickly (a small edge won't be good from a different direction) and again your tendency is to crank down hard when the grip gets worse.
On sticky rock where skin friction holds you on - as long as you have a certain amount of skin area on the hold then forces won't change as much if you change the angle you are using the hold from.
I climb on very sticky sandstone these days and my finger tendons have never been stronger.
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d0nk3yk0n9
Apr 18, 2010, 6:25 PM
Post #21 of 21
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Registered: Jan 22, 2009
Posts: 182
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Personally, I think that some of those holds look really, really nice. As has been mentioned, the jugs aren't that great, but personally, I'm not too concerned about jugs; most gyms already have tons of jugs, plus I want harder stuff to train on anyway.
The crimps and edges look pretty good. Some of them aren't so tendon friendly, but hey, they're crimps. I don't expect crimps to be super friendly. Most of the holds in those sets look like things I would enjoy climbing on.
The pinches and slopers look awesome. I like that there's a wide variety, from little pinches to big, rounded slopers. Of those, the two dual-texture ones look the coolest, as they look like they can really force a specific sequence. This is something that's often very useful to setters, especially for comp setting.
The pockets look weird, shallow, and hard to evaluate from the pictures. I definitely wouldn't buy them without actually seeing them in person first, but that's just because I can't tell how good they are from just the site. If they're good, they're probably great for comp setting because of the dual-texture areas and small amount of usable surface.
The two sets of jibs look like they're big enough to be handholds; I wouldn't have noticed this if I hadn't looked through all the holds. I'd suggest thinking about moving them to another section so that people who want screw-on hands find them more easily.
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