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joewtc


Apr 17, 2010, 9:40 PM
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How to rescue this traverse?
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How to rescue this traverse?

Leader finished leading a run-out 50m 5.10 pitch with a 60m rope (she has an extra 60m rope in her pack). She's belaying Follower with a ATC guide. Follower fell, knocked unconscious. The next and previous pitches are both traverses. The rest of the wall is 5.15. There's no chance for Leader to rope solo up to do a pendulum.

Assuming Leader has all the gear and skills in the world to rope solo, self-rescue, escape belay, haul, etc.

I originally thought about using the second rope to rope solo back to the starting anchor and build a "slack line" system with a pulley to transfer the Follower back to the anchor, clean everything and then rappel down. But the force multiplication would be immense for the anchors at both ends. Imagine me and my partner are 150pounds each and the force on each anchor would be 3000pounds.

What do you guys think?
Attachments: traverse.JPG (25.8 KB)


el_layclimber


Apr 17, 2010, 9:51 PM
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Re: [joewtc] How to rescue this traverse? [In reply to]
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joewtc wrote:
How to rescue this traverse?

Leader finished leading a run-out 50m 5.10 pitch with a 60m rope (she has an extra 60m rope in her pack). She's belaying Follower with a ATC guide. Follower fell, knocked unconscious. The next and previous pitches are both traverses. The rest of the wall is 5.15. There's no chance for Leader to rope solo up to do a pendulum.

Assuming Leader has all the gear and skills in the world to rope solo, self-rescue, escape belay, haul, etc.

I originally thought about using the second rope to rope solo back to the starting anchor and build a "slack line" system with a pulley to transfer the Follower back to the anchor, clean everything and then rappel down. But the force multiplication would be immense for the anchors at both ends. Imagine me and my partner are 150pounds each and the force on each anchor would be 3000pounds.

What do you guys think?

I think that you are the second coming of Majid. I pray that the rest of the people here go easier on you than they do on him.


joewtc


Apr 17, 2010, 10:02 PM
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Re: [el_layclimber] How to rescue this traverse? [In reply to]
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I browsed this site all the time and I remembered seeing "Majid" posts regularly. Who's he anyway? I'm currently practising some rock self-rescue skills to prepare for a trip in the Bugaboos.


bandycoot


Apr 17, 2010, 10:03 PM
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Pancakes


el_layclimber


Apr 17, 2010, 10:04 PM
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bandycoot wrote:
Pancakes

Yes.


moose_droppings


Apr 17, 2010, 10:15 PM
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Re: [joewtc] How to rescue this traverse? [In reply to]
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Escape the belay, secure line to your belay anchor. Clip your self to the line back to the follower with a quickdraw and traverse the line back to the last piece above your follower. Build another anchor there and use your second line to rap from that anchor down to your follower and pick them off, continue rap to ground.


joewtc


Apr 17, 2010, 10:32 PM
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Thanks moose_droppings for your answer.

I thought about that too. But I'm thinking what if rappelling down is not an option e.g. several pitches of horizontal traverses.


moose_droppings


Apr 17, 2010, 10:48 PM
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joewtc wrote:
Thanks moose_droppings for your answer.

I thought about that too. But I'm thinking what if rappelling down is not an option e.g. several pitches of horizontal traverses.

Well then...

While attending the needs of your follower, burn your second line and hope someone see's the smoke and calls help.


summerprophet


Apr 18, 2010, 1:16 AM
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Re: [joewtc] How to rescue this traverse? [In reply to]
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You have an unconsious victim. Rapping down is you only option with a party of two.

As MD described, letter for letter would be the best option.

If that is not possible, then tie off subject and rope solo or rappel solo to get help.

In a self rescue situation, you will not have the equipment available for highline techniques, or properly stabilizing an unconsious victim for a haul (or even the ability to haul.)

Go down. Even a 5.15 should have anchoring abilities somewhere.


jaablink


Apr 18, 2010, 5:55 AM
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Lock off the belay , use a prussic to temporally unweight the belay devise so it can be attached to you in belay mode. you can use a runner if you do not have prussic cord.

Now you have a few options, you can lower your partner to a ledge, then back clean up too the last piece self belaying yourself , then back up the belay and lower to your partner to asses and tend to their injuries. After that you can build anchors every 60m using the 2 ropes and do tandem repels .

Or ,you can lock off your belay. Use a prussic to unweight the belay devise, clip it to you, unclip from the anchor, back clean to your partner self belaying yourself there , backup / build an anchor when you reach them . Assess your partners condition. If can not be revived but you see a good belay anchoring ledge or fixed anchors , you can tie a prussic to your partners line , clip it to you and lower together off the gear you will have to leave behind.

There are more options, especially since you have 2 lines, and it also makes it much easier if you can get your partner conscious again.


acorneau


Apr 18, 2010, 6:31 AM
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Re: [moose_droppings] How to rescue this traverse? [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
Escape the belay, secure line to your belay anchor. Clip your self to the line back to the follower with a quickdraw and traverse the line back to the last piece above your follower. Build another anchor there and use your second line to rap from that anchor down to your follower and pick them off, continue rap to ground.

This was my first thought as well.

The important part is to remember that "Harness Hang Syndrome" will kill your unconscious climber in a matter of minutes. The most critical part of this rescue would be getting to your climber quickly and getting them out of the hanging position, otherwise you only have to worry about recovering the body.

If the second rope isn't long enough to rap down on it's own (even single strand) then you would have to get your climber to a stable place, like a ledge, then retrieve your primary rope so you can tie the two together to get down.


marc801


Apr 18, 2010, 7:21 AM
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Cut the follower free. They're of no use to you now.


edge


Apr 18, 2010, 8:54 AM
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joewtc wrote:
I thought about that too. But I'm thinking what if rappelling down is not an option e.g. several pitches of horizontal traverses.

Are you talking about the Zig Zag Man route on El Cap? The one that starts out on East Butt, crosses over to West Face, and then hits each one separately three more times en route to the top?

Because I already climbed that in the early eighties. We named it after our second most important piece of equipment.


billl7


Apr 18, 2010, 10:26 AM
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Re: [summerprophet] How to rescue this traverse? [In reply to]
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All good advice.

summerprophet wrote:
Go down. Even a 5.15 should have anchoring abilities somewhere.

... just be ready to ascend back up the rope if you can't find anything for the next rap anchor.


potreroed


Apr 18, 2010, 2:41 PM
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If the female leader can lead a run-out 5.10 carrying another 60m. rope on her back she is certainly strong enough to do whatever has to be done to get out of this mess.


ClimbClimb


Apr 18, 2010, 7:17 PM
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I dunno, I think you should bring portable DVD player and a copy of "Vertical Limit" for such situations.

Morbid jokes aside, unless there are some ledges and other options not covered in your set-up, it seems rather grim for both climbers. Sure, there are some things one can try, but some situations are just not easily recoverable.


sausalito


Apr 19, 2010, 9:24 PM
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I would bet the safest thing to do would be to wait at least 10 minutes to see if the climber woke up and was able to assist in any way. Getting knocked out for lengths of time greater than 10 minutes is exceedingly rare are usually point to a fairly serious underlying issue.

So like most "emergencies" waiting a few moments before action may be safer, more effective and generally the best decision.


davidnn5


Apr 19, 2010, 10:37 PM
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sausalito wrote:
I would bet the safest thing to do would be to wait at least 10 minutes to see if the climber woke up and was able to assist in any way. Getting knocked out for lengths of time greater than 10 minutes is exceedingly rare are usually point to a fairly serious underlying issue.

So like most "emergencies" waiting a few moments before action may be safer, more effective and generally the best decision.

Looking for comments from anyone experienced and knowledgeable in resue (Majid?!) as to whether harness hang syndrome/suspension trauma would set in by this stage. I'm genuinely curious - I haven't seen or heard of any definitive amount or range of time it takes for this to occur.

It would just seem counterproductive to wait to see if an unconscious climber wakes up when they are at risk of orthostatic shock.


majid_sabet


Apr 19, 2010, 11:15 PM
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this is a dangerous business and who are you asking here to help you?





styndall


Apr 19, 2010, 11:34 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
this is a dangerous business and who are you asking here to help you?



Those goats will soon be experts.


majid_sabet


Apr 20, 2010, 10:18 AM
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joewtc wrote:
How to rescue this traverse?

Leader finished leading a run-out 50m 5.10 pitch with a 60m rope (she has an extra 60m rope in her pack). She's belaying Follower with a ATC guide. Follower fell, knocked unconscious. The next and previous pitches are both traverses. The rest of the wall is 5.15. There's no chance for Leader to rope solo up to do a pendulum.

Assuming Leader has all the gear and skills in the world to rope solo, self-rescue, escape belay, haul, etc.

I originally thought about using the second rope to rope solo back to the starting anchor and build a "slack line" system with a pulley to transfer the Follower back to the anchor, clean everything and then rappel down. But the force multiplication would be immense for the anchors at both ends. Imagine me and my partner are 150pounds each and the force on each anchor would be 3000pounds.

What do you guys think?

is not the rescue that you have to worry about, its where are you and what are you going to do after your successful rescue.


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Apr 20, 2010, 1:49 PM)


irregularpanda


Apr 20, 2010, 11:27 AM
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Re: [majid_sabet] How to rescue this traverse? [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
joewtc wrote:
How to rescue this traverse?

Leader finished leading a run-out 50m 5.10 pitch with a 60m rope (she has an extra 60m rope in her pack). She's belaying Follower with a ATC guide. Follower fell, knocked unconscious. The next and previous pitches are both traverses. The rest of the wall is 5.15. There's no chance for Leader to rope solo up to do a pendulum.

Assuming Leader has all the gear and skills in the world to rope solo, self-rescue, escape belay, haul, etc.

I originally thought about using the second rope to rope solo back to the starting anchor and build a "slack line" system with a pulley to transfer the Follower back to the anchor, clean everything and then rappel down. But the force multiplication would be immense for the anchors at both ends. Imagine me and my partner are 150pounds each and the force on each anchor would be 3000pounds.

What do you guys think?

is not the rescue that you have to worry about, its where are you and what are you going to do after your successful rescue. You are all by yourself in Greenland 1000 meter above ground and 3 days away from the nearest road with no way of communicating with the outside world, you are truly a SOL case.

And, your mother in law is screaming at you, your wife just delivered you divorce papers, your taxes haven't been done yet, your second line is an 11 mil, 60M dry rope but you forgot your knife, you missed an important meeting at work about goats yesterday, and you left the oven on when you left the house to go to greenland. Another thing, you're out of food and haven't had any water for 2 months...I hope you work out with mark twight so you're prepared for this eventuality.

Bear Grylls is nearby, but he never brings rope or gear, so you might as well just transfuse his blood into your dying victi...I mean climbing partner.

Also, the icecaps are melting and Fred Beckey is laughing at you. With good reason.


ceebo


Apr 21, 2010, 2:12 AM
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Re: [irregularpanda] How to rescue this traverse? [In reply to]
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Just touch the void and cut him free, go back to your tent.. put the kettle on and wait for him to crawl back with sugar.

Really though, this is one of those questions where any answer is replied with another dilemer.. untill you get to the point where theirs no escape and your both bird feed.


clc


Apr 27, 2010, 6:40 AM
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uh you beat me to it.
Ya just cut the rope with your little pocket knife.

The injured will survive and make money from the book he writes recounting his harrowing epic of survival. It worked for a couple Brits in the Andes.


summerprophet


Apr 27, 2010, 8:11 AM
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Re: [sausalito] How to rescue this traverse? [In reply to]
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sausalito wrote:
I would bet the safest thing to do would be to wait at least 10 minutes to see if the climber woke up and was able to assist in any way. Getting knocked out for lengths of time greater than 10 minutes is exceedingly rare are usually point to a fairly serious underlying issue.

So like most "emergencies" waiting a few moments before action may be safer, more effective and generally the best decision.

DO NOT FOLLOW THIS ADVICE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Loss of Conciousness as the result of head trauma, requires immediate medical attention. There could be intercranial bleeding or bruising, and or cervical spinal injuries. With brains, when things go bad.... thay go bad fast. Even if he/she recovers after a few minutes, they could easilly slip back into unconsiousness and or death as bleeding continues.

NEVER, NEVER just wait and see when it comes to head injuries.

My Experience
Mountain Rescue Member
Former Climbing Guide
Former Industrial First Aid Attendant
Certificate - Royal Life Saving Society of Canada
Advanced Widerness For Guides for Guides
Level 3 Industrail First Aid

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