It does look like you have some wear on that section, but I can't tell from the photo what is actually going on.

TWO PAS's? TWO belay loops? I know some of the manufacturers made the double belay loop after Skinner bit the dust(RIP) when his belay loop busted through from overuse(overuse to the extreme that I doubt ANYONE who has time to post regularly to this website could ever come near achieving). It was a manufacturers marketing reaction to an unfortunate, but very widely publicized, event in our community. People actually ditched their perfectly good harnesses to buy the double loop. Well, it was good for the outdoor rec economy, I suppose.

Personally, I would never buy a harness with the double belay loop, and I'd be embarrassed to be seen wearing one.

But TWO PAS'S? For everyday free climbing? Not only would I be embarrassed to be seen in such get-up, I'd be embarrassed to be seen belaying someone that dogmatic about *safety.*

But....that's just me.


I do have the PAS, and though I've considered ditching it and just going with rope or a sling tie-in, it still has a lot of life on it. I don't think I would pay, what is it now - $30?, for a new one. The PAS was suggested to be(by a self-professed safety nazi) when I was a brand new newb. I admit that I sort of like being able to have the options of lengths, when anchored in at a little ledge.


- I girth hitch it to the top tie-in only.
- I check it, and harness point, every so often to see the wear. So far, not any, really, after 5 years use on multipitch and rap anchor clip-in use.

Someone once freaked out that I had only one point hitched, insisting I was gonna die. I agreed - I would, someday die. After all - nobody gets out alive. But it would be extremely unlikely to be from gear failure.

Still, I obediantly switched it out to do both tie-in points, and every damned time I put the harness on with that set up, found myself annoyed trying to thread the rope tie-in(especially with doubles), and also a vague annoyance due to the harness feeling off balance with the bunched up lower tie-point. I switched back to one tie point the next time I checked for wear.


You know what I think is WAY more important than how one clips themselves in? Keeping hydrated, energy level in balance through nutrition, and wearing adequate clothing. I bet a LOT more people die from fucking up their anchor/rap set up because they were bonking, dehydrated or in hypothermia mode, than all the one's(RIP Skinner, and in no way discounting the tragic loss to his family and friends) whose harness or tie-in cling broke due to wear.

The double belay loops are not for safety, they are for convince on aid climbs and big walls. I have two PAS’s for a couple of reasons. The first reason, I need two when aid climbing. Having two is part of basic aid climbing technique (at least it is how I do it). You need one attached to each aider incase you fall, that way you don’t loose your aiders. Also it’s not a good idea to be hanging 2,000 feet off the ground on a big wall suspended by a single PAS with a single carabiner. If that one bolt pulls you’re done for. If your leader takes a big fall you’re going to get pulled up to the limit of the reach of your daisy (i.e. the daisy will be stopping you from being pulled any higher). It’s possible for your biner to fail if this happens as the biner can get wedged in the hanger and the hanger can rip through the gate. It’s a bit hard to visualize but trust me it’s possible.

We'll trust you about as much as we ever do when you talk about aspects of climbing you know nothing about.

Jay

Your right, you caught me. The double belay loops are not for convince, I made that up. Hanging 2k feet off the ground off a single point of failure system is actually a great idea. Using two daisy chains in aid climbing is completely unheard of. When ascending a fixed line its cool to only be tied into one ascender with one PAS and nothing else. I am glad you have so much experience in aid and big wall techniques that you can set me in my place.

No I am not an aid expert but I know the basics. But it doesn’t even matter as none of this has anything to do with aid. The advantages of two belay loops and two PAS's extend beyond just aid climbing.

Also it’s not a good idea to be hanging 2,000 feet off the ground on a big wall suspended by a single PAS with a single carabiner. If that one bolt pulls you’re done for.

You should try roped climbing and have it tied into your harness, it will give you a backup to that single point failure.

your talking like USNAVY is JOHN LONG

our combat commando does not know the difference between home-depot nails and climbing pitons arguing with everyone here including some of the stonemasters.

do whatever you feel is right and do not worry about our boy. he is just too fresh to give climbing advice.

I personally find it amazing that many experienced climbers don't realize the benefits of the PAS, but you prolly don't do much aid climbing or multi-pitch.

If you swing leads with a proficient partner, then you never had to leave your rope end, and can always clove your end to an anchor point.

Honest question for all the non dedicated sling users on this thread. What do you do when you are leading in blocks/not swapping leads?

You are right about the aid... maybe for aiding it has practical applications, but for climbing, and multipitch trad climbing, which I've done enough of to know a thing or two about not dragging along extra worthless shit, its even less practical.

If you swing leads with a proficient partner, then you never had to leave your rope end, and can always clove your end to an anchor point.

Be amazed, but to assume that I don't do much multi-pitch climbing, because I haven't been won over by the PAS hype that you've been sold on, is disingenuous to my technical skill set.

I like the PAS for that reason too(although at the Gunks, "multiple raps" means....2.

But I have seen the few times a partner had tied in with rope and had to switch out for the rappel. Not a big deal, of course, but for myself, I would rather have the PAS(or sling clip-in) off the bat. At least on the pitches where I know I would be rapping from.

The one thing I simply see as truly embarrassing, is when someone runs the PAS or knotted sling(or worse a set of them) from the front of their harness, under their crotch, and to some connection on the back of their harness. Call me a prude - I just don't like drawing attention to "that" part of my body. Or maybe more aptly, if someone is looking at that part of my body, I don't want it to be because I have a *SlingThong* wedgie....

Guys - Imagine taking a screwed up whip and having that thing snag on a tree branch on the way down..... YEOWCH!

I know some of the manufacturers made the double belay loop after Skinner bit the dust(RIP) when his belay loop busted through from overuse(overuse to the extreme that I doubt ANYONE who has time to post regularly to this website could ever come near achieving). It was a manufacturers marketing reaction to an unfortunate, but very widely publicized, event in our community. People actually ditched their perfectly good harnesses to buy the double loop. Well, it was good for the outdoor rec economy, I suppose.

Soft goods (slings, ropes, webbing, cordage) go through the tie-in points. Hard goods (carabiners) go through the belay loop. I'm just waiting for someone to say they belay with their carabiner through their tie-in loops. That'd be the stupid icing on this dumbass cake.

I don't understand that under the crotch thing either--especially having only one remaining testicle!!

I don't understand that under the crotch thing either--especially having only one remaining testicle!!

So you're doing multiple rappels coming down off a multi-pitch climb, what do you use to clip in with while you're rigging the rappels? Here's where my worthless piece of shit PAS, which weighs next to nothing, really shines.

That seems very black or white. For the first three years I climbed I used an alpine bod harness, which doesn't have any belay loop. Carabiner through the tie in points to belay was a matter of neccessity in that circumstance.

Harnesses with two belay loops have been around a lot longer than since Skinner died.



That seems very black or white. For the first three years I climbed I used an alpine bod harness, which doesn't have any belay loop. Carabiner through the tie in points to belay was a matter of neccessity in that circumstance.

Yea I have used the rope before. I just prefer the PAS's. They are also versatile coming in handy for jumaring, aid, tying into belay stations, bolting, and lots of other stuff.

So you're doing multiple rappels coming down off a multi-pitch climb, what do you use to clip in with while you're rigging the rappels? Here's where my worthless piece of shit PAS, which weighs next to nothing, really shines.

I don't understand that under the crotch thing either--especially having only one remaining testicle!!