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Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors
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Poll: Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors
Rappelling is safer 5 / 6%
Lowering is safer 26 / 32%
Rappelling is better for preserving the integrity of bolted anchors (including chains, quicklinks, rap hangers, and regular hangers) 49 / 61%
Lowering is better for preserving the integrity of bolted anchors (including chains, quicklinks, rap hangers, and regular hangers)  0 / 0%
80 total votes
 

cjon3s


May 2, 2010, 7:23 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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I lower. I can see your point about my belaying getting pulled up, but usually this isn't a problem as they are prepared for the swing when I unclip my last draw. Even still, how far away from your belayer would you be that they would get pulled that hard?

Anyway, I lower because I personally see it as safer. I understand this trash analogy, but you still have to pull the ropes when you rap. It may not be as much abrasion as when lowering, but the friction is still there.

When lowering, you never have to untie from the rope. Plus, I've heard of a lot more accidents as a result of rapping than lowering.


jakedatc


May 2, 2010, 7:28 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
I guess I'm confused why I can clean on rappel with both hands but other people can't. Granted it's all easier on rappel because someone else is doing the work, but it only seems slightly less convenient and no less safe. By the way I'll be back east for a few weeks in Sep/Oct. I'll be hitting Rumney for a day or two so hopefully you'll be there to laugh at me when I clean everything on rappel.

i'd rather trust my belayer than a friction knot. It is way more convenient and for 1 person to lower is not that bad on the anchor. I suspect the anchors you see wearing out have been top roped to death by people not using their own draws for anchors.

and i will laugh.. and point.


ClimbClimb


May 2, 2010, 8:03 PM
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Re: [jakedatc] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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I know people are religious about this, but my view is that a party should top-rope through their own gear, and then the last person (to clean anchors and potentially other gear) gets lowered through the permanent gear. If the permanent gear is a bolt (not aquicklinkcor chains), it is storngly preferred to have them rap instead of lowering. Otherwise, unless the "cleaner" is really psyched about rapping, I think it is perfectly reasonable for them to be lowered.

There's wear and gear needs replacing, no doubt, one sees this ast Rumney for a example -- but it does get replaced. I think the most important thing is not lowering through bolts. Carabiners/quicklinks/chains are much more easily replaced as part of regular sport route maintenance.


jt512


May 2, 2010, 8:49 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
This is something I wanted to know after reading about people lowering through the anchors in another thread. The thought in that thread was that it was generally safer to lower and that it was the purpose of the bolted anchors being there in the first place.

I disagreed for two reasons.

1. You're a n00b.

2. You're a gumby.

Jay


jt512


May 2, 2010, 8:53 PM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
How do you figure?

Try it.

Edit: No don't try it. Just explain how you would clean a traversing route on rappel.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 2, 2010, 8:54 PM)


jakedatc


May 2, 2010, 9:18 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
How do you figure?

Try it.

Edit: No don't try it. Just explain how you would clean a traversing route on rappel.

Jay

he's a (not)guide... he can do things! Laugh


byran


May 2, 2010, 10:11 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
How do you figure?

Try it.

Edit: No don't try it. Just explain how you would clean a traversing route on rappel.

Jay

You swing? It's really not all that hard cleaning an overhang if you keep your momentum up. If it's really that crazy of a roof or traverse then my partner or I will clean it on the way up, but I'm pretty sure anything I can clean getting lowered off I can clean on rappel.

I rap any time I have to thread the anchors because it's just as fast as getting tied back in. Sometimes I'll even top belay my partner and we'll both rap if it's an area like IC where the rope is scarring the rock (or if there's just a lot of drag). I do occasionally get lowered off open shuts just out of pure laziness and I always lower off those fatass mussy hooks.

One question I have though - are rap rings really less resistant to wear than quicklinks? There were a couple comments in this thread about them rotating so they don't get grooved as easily. I've always thought it was a really bad idea to lower or toprope through rap rings because they're hollow on the inside. While you can visibly see the wear on a quicklink or carabiner, the aluminum on a rap ring is so thin by the time it forms any sort of "groove" its strength is dramatically reduced. Am I wrong about this?


jt512


May 2, 2010, 10:29 PM
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Re: [byran] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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byran wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
How do you figure?

Try it.

Edit: No don't try it. Just explain how you would clean a traversing route on rappel.

Jay

You swing? It's really not all that hard cleaning an overhang if you keep your momentum up. If it's really that crazy of a roof or traverse then my partner or I will clean it on the way up, but I'm pretty sure anything I can clean getting lowered off I can clean on rappel.

Fixt to remove portions of the response not pertinent to the question.

Jay


byran


May 2, 2010, 10:43 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Fixt to remove portions of the response not pertinent to the question.

Jay
Well you can swing forward to back OR side to side, you know, like a pendulum traverse. And if it's a pitch of mostly horizontal climbing you're not going to be able to clean that while being lowered either.


jt512


May 2, 2010, 10:58 PM
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Re: [byran] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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byran wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Fixt to remove portions of the response not pertinent to the question.

Jay
Well you can swing forward to back OR side to side, you know, like a pendulum traverse. And if it's a pitch of mostly horizontal climbing you're not going to be able to clean that while being lowered either.

I guess we're back to "try it," then. In fact, since you're a local, I'll be more specific. Go to Echo Cliffs, and try it on one the 12s in the Kamikaze Cave.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 2, 2010, 11:00 PM)


byran


May 2, 2010, 11:15 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
byran wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Fixt to remove portions of the response not pertinent to the question.

Jay
Well you can swing forward to back OR side to side, you know, like a pendulum traverse. And if it's a pitch of mostly horizontal climbing you're not going to be able to clean that while being lowered either.

I guess we're back to "try it," then. In fact, since you're a local, I'll be more specific. Go to Echo Cliffs, and try it on one the 12s in the Kamikaze Cave.

Jay

Don't those all have fixed draws on them? Sly

Seriously though, there's some routes out there that can only be cleaned my following them, and that's what I usually do. I have cleaned some seriously steep stuff at Red Rock and St George by just swinging around on rappel Stuff that's just as steep as anything I've ever cleaned using the "tram draw" technique while lowering.


jmeizis


May 2, 2010, 11:19 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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1. You're a d-bag with an inferiority complex.

2. It's easy even for someone like you who thinks they're better than everyone else.

That side of the rope still clipped through the draws. Yeah, tell your belayer to pull on it. You will magically be pulled towards the next quickdraw.

Now I'm going to bed, because I want to get up early and climb tomorrow. Have fun with your circle jerk here big guy.


jt512


May 3, 2010, 12:20 AM
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Re: [byran] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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byran wrote:
jt512 wrote:
byran wrote:
jt512 wrote:
Fixt to remove portions of the response not pertinent to the question.

Jay
Well you can swing forward to back OR side to side, you know, like a pendulum traverse. And if it's a pitch of mostly horizontal climbing you're not going to be able to clean that while being lowered either.

I guess we're back to "try it," then. In fact, since you're a local, I'll be more specific. Go to Echo Cliffs, and try it on one the 12s in the Kamikaze Cave.

Jay

Don't those all have fixed draws on them? Sly

Seriously though, there's some routes out there that can only be cleaned my following them...

Not those routes in the cave, but you can clean them by lowering. I can't imaging why anyone would try to clean them on rappel. I doubt anyone ever has. Maybe Jeremiah will come out here and show us all how it's done.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on May 3, 2010, 12:22 AM)


jt512


May 3, 2010, 12:27 AM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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jmeizis wrote:
In the west where ropes get covered in sand it doesn't take that long, sometimes less than a year...

Bullshit. Even at ORG, where the sand is like diamond dust, the anchors don't wear out that quickly.

Jay


Partner j_ung


May 3, 2010, 5:13 AM
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Re: [jt512] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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Whether I lower, rappel or clean the route by following it depends entirely on the route and the type of anchor.

Edit: and sometimes the condition that anchor is in.


(This post was edited by j_ung on May 3, 2010, 5:13 AM)


blueeyedclimber


May 3, 2010, 6:13 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
Whether I lower, rappel or clean the route by following it depends entirely on the route and the type of anchor.

Edit: and sometimes the condition that anchor is in.

You mean it's situational? IT can't be decided by a poll? That's Crazy Talk!!! Cool


kaizen


May 3, 2010, 7:04 AM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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1. Statistically, way more accidents occur on rap than from lowering. If you trust your partner to safely catch you on a lead fall, then I don't see how lowering would ever be in question. This is like having airbags in your car, it will save you 10 times for everytime it will kill someone, only I bet that it's still way safer than those odds. How is this even a question?

2. I almost always lower. There is no point in swinging around all nimbly bimbly from a fixed anchor on rap to clean some steep route, when I can easily clean it being lowered. I'm not sure why you think that lowering will cause so much damage to quicklinks, shuts, etc. As long as you aren't top roping through the anchor, the wear is minimal.

2b. What is the local ethic/what does the equipper want? I've only been to a dozen or so different areas in the US and Canada, but have never been to a place where rapping is desired off the anchor. I only know two people who equip routes, but neither person cares about lowering through the anchor, and they do it as well.

3. This seems less like a search for others opinions, and more like defending your personal stance (which I overwhelmingly disagree with).


johnwesely


May 3, 2010, 7:27 AM
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Re: [ClimbClimb] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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ClimbClimb wrote:
There's wear and gear needs replacing, no doubt, one sees this ast Rumney for a example -- but it does get replaced. I think the most important thing is not lowering through bolts. Carabiners/quicklinks/chains are much more easily replaced as part of regular sport route maintenance.

Who is lowering directly through the bolts? That sounds like a pretty bad idea.


johnwesely


May 3, 2010, 7:29 AM
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Re: [byran] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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byran wrote:
jt512 wrote:
jmeizis wrote:
How do you figure?

Try it.

Edit: No don't try it. Just explain how you would clean a traversing route on rappel.

Jay

You swing? It's really not all that hard cleaning an overhang if you keep your momentum up. If it's really that crazy of a roof or traverse then my partner or I will clean it on the way up, but I'm pretty sure anything I can clean getting lowered off I can clean on rappel.

I rap any time I have to thread the anchors because it's just as fast as getting tied back in. Sometimes I'll even top belay my partner and we'll both rap if it's an area like IC where the rope is scarring the rock (or if there's just a lot of drag). I do occasionally get lowered off open shuts just out of pure laziness and I always lower off those fatass mussy hooks.

One question I have though - are rap rings really less resistant to wear than quicklinks? There were a couple comments in this thread about them rotating so they don't get grooved as easily. I've always thought it was a really bad idea to lower or toprope through rap rings because they're hollow on the inside. While you can visibly see the wear on a quicklink or carabiner, the aluminum on a rap ring is so thin by the time it forms any sort of "groove" its strength is dramatically reduced. Am I wrong about this?

The rap rings that are pre attached to anchor bolts are solid steel. The rap rings for setting up rappels on multi pitch routes are aluminum. I doubt there is any appreciable strength loss from grooves in a steel rap ring.


Partner drector


May 3, 2010, 7:47 AM
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Re: [kaizen] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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In reply to:
Statistically, way more accidents occur on rap than from lowering.

Just a thought, maybe that's because no one ever lowers off a thirteen pitch route but they might rap down it? Comparing the death rate between lowering and rappelling is a bit like comparing the death rate between riding motorcycles and kayaking. The situations differ enough to make it hard to do a meaningful comparison.

to the OP and others:

IMHO, rappelling is less safe simply because there is more activity involved such as untying from the rope. Each step in a dangerous process adds danger and there are simply more steps involved in rappelling.

Using the ability of the climber as a basis for saying that one is more dangerous than the other is stupid because the safety level of BOTH is increased or decreased based on that ability.

Dave


potreroed


May 3, 2010, 8:21 AM
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Re: [jmeizis] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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I always lower--it's safer and faster and the wear on the anchor is negligible.


Partner xtrmecat


May 3, 2010, 9:09 AM
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Re: [kaizen] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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kaizen wrote:
2. I almost always lower. There is no point in swinging around all nimbly bimbly from a fixed anchor on rap to clean some steep route, when I can easily clean it being lowered. I'm not sure why you think that lowering will cause so much damage to quicklinks, shuts, etc. As long as you aren't top roping through the anchor, the wear is minimal.

2b. What is the local ethic/what does the equipper want? I've only been to a dozen or so different areas in the US and Canada, but have never been to a place where rapping is desired off the anchor. I only know two people who equip routes, but neither person cares about lowering through the anchor, and they do it as well.

I equip routes, and most certainly would appreciate it it you either pitch in for top anchors, or rap. Local area ethics are to rap. All our areas in the closest 250 miles are like this also. Non rappers cause lots of wear, just because you don't do anything about it or look for it doesn't make it nonexistent.

To the dingus(no offence Dingus) who mentioned that he has never seen a collection at the top of a route he has done. We keep em with us, keeps cheepskates and thieves from helping themselves, ask around, everywhere I have been has locals who will gladly take contributions for anchor repair in their area, including ours. Ignorance is never an excuse.


Bob


kaizen


May 3, 2010, 9:22 AM
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xtrmecat wrote:
kaizen wrote:
2. I almost always lower. There is no point in swinging around all nimbly bimbly from a fixed anchor on rap to clean some steep route, when I can easily clean it being lowered. I'm not sure why you think that lowering will cause so much damage to quicklinks, shuts, etc. As long as you aren't top roping through the anchor, the wear is minimal.

2b. What is the local ethic/what does the equipper want? I've only been to a dozen or so different areas in the US and Canada, but have never been to a place where rapping is desired off the anchor. I only know two people who equip routes, but neither person cares about lowering through the anchor, and they do it as well.

I equip routes, and most certainly would appreciate it it you either pitch in for top anchors, or rap. Local area ethics are to rap. All our areas in the closest 250 miles are like this also. Non rappers cause lots of wear, just because you don't do anything about it or look for it doesn't make it nonexistent.

To the dingus(no offence Dingus) who mentioned that he has never seen a collection at the top of a route he has done. We keep em with us, keeps cheepskates and thieves from helping themselves, ask around, everywhere I have been has locals who will gladly take contributions for anchor repair in their area, including ours. Ignorance is never an excuse.


Bob

I do monetarily contribute to the routes being put up in the area - this summer I'll begin equipping my own routes. I've only been at it for 2 years now, so still getting around to it.

I noticed you're in Kalispell - I've climbed at Kila crag and some area by a lake I don't recall. I met someone there, and after chatting with him he said he had equipped about 400 routes in the area - and I am pretty sure I saw him lowering off a climb....


Partner xtrmecat


May 3, 2010, 9:39 AM
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kaizen wrote:
xtrmecat wrote:
kaizen wrote:
2. I almost always lower. There is no point in swinging around all nimbly bimbly from a fixed anchor on rap to clean some steep route, when I can easily clean it being lowered. I'm not sure why you think that lowering will cause so much damage to quicklinks, shuts, etc. As long as you aren't top roping through the anchor, the wear is minimal.

2b. What is the local ethic/what does the equipper want? I've only been to a dozen or so different areas in the US and Canada, but have never been to a place where rapping is desired off the anchor. I only know two people who equip routes, but neither person cares about lowering through the anchor, and they do it as well.

I equip routes, and most certainly would appreciate it it you either pitch in for top anchors, or rap. Local area ethics are to rap. All our areas in the closest 250 miles are like this also. Non rappers cause lots of wear, just because you don't do anything about it or look for it doesn't make it nonexistent.

To the dingus(no offence Dingus) who mentioned that he has never seen a collection at the top of a route he has done. We keep em with us, keeps cheepskates and thieves from helping themselves, ask around, everywhere I have been has locals who will gladly take contributions for anchor repair in their area, including ours. Ignorance is never an excuse.


Bob

I do monetarily contribute to the routes being put up in the area - this summer I'll begin equipping my own routes. I've only been at it for 2 years now, so still getting around to it.

I noticed you're in Kalispell - I've climbed at Kila crag and some area by a lake I don't recall. I met someone there, and after chatting with him he said he had equipped about 400 routes in the area - and I am pretty sure I saw him lowering off a climb....

That would be Steve S. He solos or climbs with only a couple people, one of which is me. First "if" you saw him lower, which I seroiusly doubt, it was through anchors he personally purchased, without your help. And second, I have climbed with him probably more than anyone in the last decade, and I not only don't recall you, but I can never recall lowering Steve off of anything. And if I wasn't the lowerer, how does a soloist lower himself???. No that's not the method he uses. Try again?

Bob


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May 3, 2010, 9:51 AM
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Re: [blueeyedclimber] Rappelling or Lowering Through Bolted Anchors [In reply to]
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blueeyedclimber wrote:
j_ung wrote:
Whether I lower, rappel or clean the route by following it depends entirely on the route and the type of anchor.

Edit: and sometimes the condition that anchor is in.

You mean it's situational? IT can't be decided by a poll? That's Crazy Talk!!! Cool

What about if the poll is broken and completely meaningless. Can it be decided then?

GO

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