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The "Included" Double Fisherman
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edge


May 11, 2010, 6:14 AM
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The "Included" Double Fisherman
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I developed this method for tying my perlon slings on gear sometime around 1980, and rather liked how it kept the slings neat and tidy. In fact, I liked it so much I also used the same method when replacing the slings on my cams with supertape.

Now, it goes without saying that was some 30 years ago, and I have fallen multiple times on said slings, so far without incident. On many thousands of pitches, both rock, ice, and combined, as well as single pitch through walls, I have used gear slung in this manner.

That doesn't mean, however, that I no longer wonder about the potential loss of strength, because I do. I just always assumed it would be negligible.

Anyway, I never had a name for this, but decided for the purposes of this thread to call it the "Included Double Fishermans" because the opposite side of the sling is included inside the knot, although it just runs straight through.

Any thoughts on this? Adatesman, do you have any spare sling or perlon for a pull test? Maybe during nap time???

The knot.


And a close-up.



yokese


May 11, 2010, 6:43 AM
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Re: [edge] The "Included" Double Fisherman [In reply to]
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Why do I see only one end of the sling?? Crazy


edge


May 11, 2010, 7:07 AM
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yokese wrote:
Why do I see only one end of the sling?? Crazy

There is a cam on the right side and a biner on the left. The discussion is about the knot...


bill123


May 11, 2010, 7:12 AM
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I think he means that there is only 1 tail coming out of the knot. I assume that's what "included" refers to. I'm curious about the other tail also.


edge


May 11, 2010, 7:16 AM
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bill123 wrote:
I think he means that there is only 1 tail coming out of the knot. I assume that's what "included" refers to. I'm curious about the other tail also.

Oh. There is a similar length tail on the opposite side of the knot, but hidden behind the two strands.


maldaly


May 11, 2010, 7:20 AM
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I used to sling small, finger-sized hexes like that. I always used the strong 5.5mm stuff. It let me rack several on a carabiner and then I could carry and use them like wired nuts.

Worked great until I discovered that hexes suck and tricams rule.

Mal


bill123


May 11, 2010, 7:31 AM
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How does this differ from a double fisherman's?


edge


May 11, 2010, 7:33 AM
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bill123 wrote:
How does this differ from a double fisherman's?

It is the same knot. However it includes the opposite side of the sling, which runs straight through the knot. This keeps it tidy and not just an open loop.


bill123


May 11, 2010, 7:44 AM
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"I see," said the blind man. I'm slapping myself in the head right now. Thanks for pointing that out.


meanandugly


May 11, 2010, 7:51 AM
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Yup, I've been tying my hexes like that for years and use to make my dirtbag dogbone slings like that to. I called it the dogbone double fisherman.


boymeetsrock


May 11, 2010, 7:52 AM
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edge wrote:
bill123 wrote:
How does this differ from a double fisherman's?

It is the same knot. However it includes the opposite side of the sling, which runs straight through the knot. This keeps it tidy and not just an open loop.


I'm confused by this part. Would you describe how you tie this?


acorneau


May 11, 2010, 8:38 AM
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meanandugly wrote:
Yup, I've been tying my hexes like that for years and use to make my dirtbag dogbone slings like that to. I called it the dogbone double fisherman.

Been tying my hexes the same way. Makes things nice and tidy.

You can also pull one end of the loose side to create a constriction, like around a biner, if you needed to.


Partner cracklover


May 11, 2010, 9:23 AM
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acorneau wrote:
meanandugly wrote:
Yup, I've been tying my hexes like that for years and use to make my dirtbag dogbone slings like that to. I called it the dogbone double fisherman.

Been tying my hexes the same way. Makes things nice and tidy.

Interesting. In the larger hexes, I always hide the knot inside the hex to reduce bulk.

Edge - I would expect the knot to be either equal to, or stronger than a standard double fisherman. My understanding has always been that for a given knot, the strength reduction increases as the bend of the cord increases. Because your knot is running around the cord, all the angles should be slightly less acute, so the strength reduction of the cord should be less.

GO


acorneau


May 11, 2010, 9:32 AM
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cracklover wrote:
acorneau wrote:
Been tying my hexes the same way. Makes things nice and tidy.

Interesting. In the larger hexes, I always hide the knot inside the hex to reduce bulk.

Yes, I also put the knot inside the largest sizes (#9, 10, and 11, I believe).


bill413


May 11, 2010, 10:11 AM
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I guess the only thing I can see that would be negative in terms of the knot itself is possible loosening. You now have (sort-of) two cords inside the knot - the one that is present in a normally tied double fisherman, and the one specific to this knot, running straight through.
As the sling is loaded, unloaded, and flexed, would this extra strand cause the knot to expand/unwrap a bit more easily than a normal DF?

Since you've (pl.) been using it for a long while, you probably can answer from direct experience.


edge


May 11, 2010, 10:53 AM
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bill413 wrote:
I guess the only thing I can see that would be negative in terms of the knot itself is possible loosening. You now have (sort-of) two cords inside the knot - the one that is present in a normally tied double fisherman, and the one specific to this knot, running straight through.
As the sling is loaded, unloaded, and flexed, would this extra strand cause the knot to expand/unwrap a bit more easily than a normal DF?

Since you've (pl.) been using it for a long while, you probably can answer from direct experience.

I have never had an issue with that, in fact they are mostly quite welded once they have held weight. I particularly like this knot for webbing, but pics of that would not have been so clear.

Acorneau makes a good point about being able to constrict one end, but in my experience you can only do that with a freshly tied knot that hasn't been weighted. I personally don't carry any for that purpose, but could imagine some applications.


edge


May 11, 2010, 10:58 AM
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Re: [cracklover] The "Included" Double Fisherman [In reply to]
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cracklover wrote:
Interesting. In the larger hexes, I always hide the knot inside the hex to reduce bulk.

Me too, but I almost never carry any hexes larger than an old school Chouinard 6. I'm lucky to have read that, the diamond C was all worn off, but the 6 showed up when I licked it...

In reply to:
Edge - I would expect the knot to be either equal to, or stronger than a standard double fisherman. My understanding has always been that for a given knot, the strength reduction increases as the bend of the cord increases. Because your knot is running around the cord, all the angles should be slightly less acute, so the strength reduction of the cord should be less.

GO

Good point, but I still wonder. Hence the question about pull testing.


acorneau


May 11, 2010, 11:06 AM
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edge wrote:
... but the 6 showed up when I licked it...


Giggity.


Partner cracklover


May 11, 2010, 12:04 PM
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edge wrote:
In reply to:
Edge - I would expect the knot to be either equal to, or stronger than a standard double fisherman. My understanding has always been that for a given knot, the strength reduction increases as the bend of the cord increases. Because your knot is running around the cord, all the angles should be slightly less acute, so the strength reduction of the cord should be less.

GO

Good point, but I still wonder. Hence the question about pull testing.

Oh yeah, the only way to know would be pull-testing. Just my bet about what the results might be.

GO


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