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Safest way to belay while hauling?
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USnavy


May 20, 2010, 2:05 AM
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Safest way to belay while hauling?
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Say your partner and you are climbing a route on El Cap and you both decide you want to follow free or on direct aid versus jugging for most of the pitches. However you donít want to belay the second, and then haul as that will take too long. In this case, what would be the best option to belay while hauling a heavy ass bag? Whatís the standard method of process when the party wants to follow free similar to a free climbing route vise on jugs?


tomtom


May 20, 2010, 6:01 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Safest way to belay while hauling? [In reply to]
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The follower is top rope soloing. There are a number of rigging systems to protect that.


socalclimber


May 20, 2010, 7:00 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Safest way to belay while hauling? [In reply to]
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Any particular reason the answer you got on SuperTaco wasn't acceptable?

My .02 worth, have the second just jug and clean. There are time when it can be faster to free climb a section for the second. Having the second re-aid a pitch is just going to be inefficient.


summerprophet


May 20, 2010, 8:17 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Safest way to belay while hauling? [In reply to]
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It is unsafe and awkward to belay and haul at the same time.

Have the second belay themself, or belay them up to you and share the task of hauling.

The standard practice is to either have the second jug while the leader hauls OR have both climbers climb with packs, and ditch hauling alltogether.


USnavy


May 20, 2010, 8:51 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] Safest way to belay while hauling? [In reply to]
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Which response? Not everyone recommended the same thing. Anyway regarding the roped solo option, I donít really like that suggestion. There are a number of issues with that (unless there is a method of roped soloing I donít know). The route I intend to climb wonders a fair amount over some pitches. That means if the second falls on one of these sections they are going to pretty much take a lead fall. On a GriGri this is not as big of an issue (but I still wouldnít want to take a lead fall on a GriGri). On a toothed ascender such as a mini-traxon, thatís a very serious issue. With the GriGri the climber would have to take their hand off the rock continuously to tie back up knots and feed the GriGri. This may be fine on 5.8. Itís near impossible on 5.11 (at least for me). Then there is the issue of the rope flaping around in the wind and getting cauight on crap everywhere as well.


(This post was edited by USnavy on May 20, 2010, 8:57 AM)


marc801


May 20, 2010, 8:54 AM
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Re: [summerprophet] Safest way to belay while hauling? [In reply to]
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summerprophet wrote:
...or belay them up to you and share the task of hauling.
The downside of course is if the bag gets stuck (which happens more frequently than most wall n00bs realize), there's no one down there to free it. So you've just added what...30? 60? maybe 90 minutes to that pitch? While there are multitudes of pitches on El Cap where the bag hangs free, there are just as many where it gets jammed in chimneys and OWs or hung up on flakes.


edge


May 20, 2010, 8:59 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Safest way to belay while hauling? [In reply to]
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USnavy wrote:
Which response? Not everyone recommended the same thing. Anyway regarding the roped solo option, I donít really like that suggestion. There are a number of issues with that (unless there is a method of roped soloing I donít know). The route I intend to climb wonders a fair amount over some pitches. That means if the second falls on one of these sections they are going to pretty much take a lead fall. On a GriGri this is not as big of an issue (but I still wouldnít want to take a lead fall on a GriGri). On a toothed ascender such as a mini-traxon, thatís a very serious issue. With the GriGri the climber would have to take their hand off the rock continuously to tie back up knots and feed the GriGri. This may be fine on 5.8. Itís near impossible on 5.11 (at least for me). Then there is the issue of the rope flaping around in the wind and getting cauight on crap everywhere as well.

Well, since you are being so close lipped about specifics, your questions are generally too broad to expect meaningful answers.

If the second is following on aid, then the Gri Gri with backups is pretty standard.

Now that you have brought 5.11 free climbing into the equation, all I can say is you can't have it both ways. Either you belay the second and then haul, or maybe haul first and then belay the second. The latter would allow him/her to unstick the pig if she gets stuck.


(This post was edited by edge on May 20, 2010, 9:00 AM)


shimanilami


May 20, 2010, 9:19 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Safest way to belay while hauling? [In reply to]
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Just out of interest, what route are you planning to do?

I can think of a few pitches on El Cap where the free climbing is just too good to pass up. As others have said, the leader should haul first, then belay the second (or vice versa, depending on the "stuck pig" potential).

But for the vast majority of pitches, the second will want to jug up. It's so much faster (at least, for mere mortals such as me ... even if I do have a bit of experience on that rock ... which, I'd venture, you don't.)


summerprophet


May 20, 2010, 9:19 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Safest way to belay while hauling? [In reply to]
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Wondering Alpine style pitches are shitty to rope solo.
Inevitiable, the rope below you gets hung up on stuff, or pulling loose stuff off, or just being terrified during a tenous traverse.
For pitches like this, if the second is taking a belay, then the leader needs to set a lot of gear to protect the second, if the second is jugging then running it out is a benifit to the second.

As far as top-rope soloing, I prefer a rescuecender with a prussik above it. Far more effiient than a gri-gri, lighter than a soloist, and can be utilized in the hauling as well.


caughtinside


May 20, 2010, 9:37 AM
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Re: [shimanilami] Safest way to belay while hauling? [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
Just out of interest, what route are you planning to do?

90% Nose, 8% Salathe, 2% LF.


edge


May 20, 2010, 9:41 AM
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Re: [caughtinside] Safest way to belay while hauling? [In reply to]
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caughtinside wrote:
shimanilami wrote:
Just out of interest, what route are you planning to do?

90% Nose, 8% Salathe, 2% LF.

You left out East Buttress.


sspssp


May 20, 2010, 11:07 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Safest way to belay while hauling? [In reply to]
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If you have enough time, I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting the second to climb instead of jugging.

If you don't want the second self-belaying and the second is doing direct aid, it seems like you could set the belay rope up through an atc guide or reverso type device and belay them up while hauling. Definitely some extra work for the person on top, but you are going to pay a price for not having the second jug.

For free climbing I think you are left with the second self-belaying or hauling and belaying separately.


(This post was edited by sspssp on May 20, 2010, 11:07 AM)


USnavy


May 20, 2010, 11:14 AM
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Re: [shimanilami] Safest way to belay while hauling? [In reply to]
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shimanilami wrote:
Just out of interest, what route are you planning to do?

I can think of a few pitches on El Cap where the free climbing is just too good to pass up. As others have said, the leader should haul first, then belay the second (or vice versa, depending on the "stuck pig" potential).

But for the vast majority of pitches, the second will want to jug up. It's so much faster (at least, for mere mortals such as me ... even if I do have a bit of experience on that rock ... which, I'd venture, you don't.)

Da Nose. Lots of good free climbing on there it seems from the pics I have seen, I dont want to miss it. Thus the reason why I would rather second with my ascenders on my gear loops, direct aid or free.


(This post was edited by USnavy on May 20, 2010, 11:15 AM)


sspssp


May 20, 2010, 11:28 AM
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Re: [USnavy] Safest way to belay while hauling? [In reply to]
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I kind of figured you were more interested in having your second free climb than the second direct aid.

Again, I can understand it, there is a lot of good free climbing on the Nose. However, it is a really busy route to be doing antics on it that will slow you, and other parties, down...


socalclimber


May 20, 2010, 12:20 PM
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Re: [sspssp] Safest way to belay while hauling? [In reply to]
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Based on your question, and your possible route selection, I really think what you may be planning is a bad idea. I think you're gonna have your hands full to begin with just dealing with all the logistics of a wall. If I were you, I'd seriously consider going in a "traditional" wall style.

You're gonna be plenty busy just dealing with the systems, the weight of the bags, hitting your targets by the end of the day, setting up camp, breaking down camp, partnership issues etc.

Don't complicate your "wall" life anymore than you need to.

If you do decide on the nose, keep an eye on when you are planning to do this. The summer temps are brutal up there.


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