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splashclimber
Jun 11, 2010, 3:31 PM
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What is the "Super Munter"? This is referred to in Climbing Magazine Tech Tip http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/tech_tips_trad_-_munter_magic/
The article refers to the "Super Munter sidebar" which does not exist. Anybody have link or information about this "Super Munter"? Article quote: Twisting: You can prevent — or at least reduce — the kinks produced by a Munter by braking as per above, or by using a Super Munter (see “Super Munter to the Rescue” sidebar).
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majid_sabet
Jun 11, 2010, 3:53 PM
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Drop test has proven that munter knot is not the best option while belay second from top. Its not a bad knot for emergency rap or belay TR if you got nothing else but overall, munter does damages rope faster than any belay device.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 11, 2010, 3:53 PM)
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dbogardus
Jun 11, 2010, 4:14 PM
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What were the results of those tests?
Was it a failure of the hitch or the twisting of the rope during use which gave the bad results?
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dolphja
Jun 11, 2010, 5:07 PM
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rope on rope friction
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dbogardus
Jun 11, 2010, 5:14 PM
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which resulted in what? sheath tearing?
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hafilax
Jun 11, 2010, 6:07 PM
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dolphja wrote: splashclimber wrote: What is the "Super Munter"? This is referred to in Climbing Magazine Tech Tip http://www.climbing.com/...trad_-_munter_magic/ The article refers to the "Super Munter sidebar" which does not exist. Anybody have link or information about this "Super Munter"? Article quote: Twisting: You can prevent — or at least reduce — the kinks produced by a Munter by braking as per above, or by using a Super Munter (see “Super Munter to the Rescue” sidebar). clicky  & the double munter aka super munter http://www.potomacmountainclub.org/...d=269&Itemid=107 tada 
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steady_climbing
Jun 11, 2010, 6:49 PM
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The Munter is the proverbial "shit". Learn it, live it, love it!
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psprings
Jun 11, 2010, 7:03 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: Drop test has proven that munter knot is not the best option while belay second from top. Its not a bad knot for emergency rap or belay TR if you got nothing else but overall, munter does damages rope faster than any belay device.
Munters have more stopping power than any non-autolocking belay device... 2.5Kns of force. That's a lot.
The sheath of your rope may get fuzzy, after a long time, but no, you don't have to worry about it "damaging" your rope. It's a great knot and works great for belaying from above. :D
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roy_hinkley_jr
Jun 11, 2010, 7:31 PM
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psprings wrote: Munters have more stopping power than any non-autolocking belay device... 2.5Kns of force. That's a lot. The sheath of your rope may get fuzzy, after a long time, but no, you don't have to worry about it "damaging" your rope. It's a great knot and works great for belaying from above. :D
Depends on the orientation but basically correct for a Munter attached to an anchor higher than the belayer.
Falling wears out ropes more, so don't.
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patmay81
Jun 11, 2010, 7:37 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: psprings wrote: Munters have more stopping power than any non-autolocking belay device... 2.5Kns of force. That's a lot. The sheath of your rope may get fuzzy, after a long time, but no, you don't have to worry about it "damaging" your rope. It's a great knot and works great for belaying from above. :D Depends on the orientation but basically correct for a Munter attached to an anchor higher than the belayer. Falling wears out ropes more, so don't.
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splashclimber
Jun 11, 2010, 9:23 PM
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After looking at the helpful links, I see that the Super Munter has many names, but the name Monster Munter seems to be more common?
I found this link on youtube -- long, (to just see the knot skip to 5 minutes in or so to see the tying of the actual knot. ) But great discussion on its use.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ulTTrhfCvs
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majid_sabet
Jun 11, 2010, 9:37 PM
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psprings wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Drop test has proven that munter knot is not the best option while belay second from top. Its not a bad knot for emergency rap or belay TR if you got nothing else but overall, munter does damages rope faster than any belay device. Munters have more stopping power than any non-autolocking belay device... 2.5Kns of force. That's a lot. The sheath of your rope may get fuzzy, after a long time, but no, you don't have to worry about it "damaging" your rope. It's a great knot and works great for belaying from above. :D
are making this up or is it based on some serious fact ? I mean, I got set of documentary drop test films that shows how a 100kg falling object zips out of belayers hand on FF2 with munter
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hafilax
Jun 11, 2010, 9:45 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: psprings wrote: majid_sabet wrote: Drop test has proven that munter knot is not the best option while belay second from top. Its not a bad knot for emergency rap or belay TR if you got nothing else but overall, munter does damages rope faster than any belay device. Munters have more stopping power than any non-autolocking belay device... 2.5Kns of force. That's a lot. The sheath of your rope may get fuzzy, after a long time, but no, you don't have to worry about it "damaging" your rope. It's a great knot and works great for belaying from above. :D are making this up or is it based on some serious fact ? I mean, I got set of documentary drop test films that shows how a 100kg falling object zips out of belayers hand on FF2 with munter
Belaying from above means bringing up a second.
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majid_sabet
Jun 11, 2010, 9:49 PM
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dbogardus wrote: What were the results of those tests? Was it a failure of the hitch or the twisting of the rope during use which gave the bad results?
the problem with munter hitch is the way this knot generates friction by using multiple loops around a biner.
diameter of the rope, biner diameter, climber's gripping power etc are contributors on how this knot does its job. most climber forget that upper TR biner reduces friction by about 40%+ therefore, only 1/2 of the forces are transferred to munter at belay. once you reverse the situation and perform belay from above, there are no extra biner to reduce friction and the gripping power of most climbers is not strong enough to stop a big load. again, we are taking full vertical situation where you have no rope drag or other means of adding friction.
one way to test munter is to take a large size pulley for TR instead of using top biner then ask the leader to take a fall and see how munter manages the belay
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 11, 2010, 9:51 PM)
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socalclimber
Jun 11, 2010, 10:10 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: dbogardus wrote: What were the results of those tests? Was it a failure of the hitch or the twisting of the rope during use which gave the bad results? the problem with munter hitch is the way this knot generates friction by using multiple loops around a biner. diameter of the rope, biner diameter, climber's gripping power etc are contributors on how this knot does its job. most climber forget that upper TR biner reduces friction by about 40%+ therefore, only 1/2 of the forces are transferred to munter at belay. once you reverse the situation and perform belay from above, there are no extra biner to reduce friction and the gripping power of most climbers is not strong enough to stop a big load. again, we are taking full vertical situation where you have no rope drag or other means of adding friction. one way to test munter is to take a large size pulley for TR instead of using top biner then ask the leader to take a fall and see how munter manages the belay
With all due respect, how are you going to generate a FF2 fall belaying a second? I guess if you (the belayer) isn't paying attention and there is a ton of slack in the system and they fall you could generate some pretty hi FF.
While I appreciate the test results, I just don't see any issue with using a munter to belay a second with.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Jun 11, 2010, 11:03 PM
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socalclimber wrote: I just don't see any issue with using a munter to belay a second with.
More to the point, it's better than ANY slotted belay device for belaying a second off the anchor. No issues with lowering if they're hanging in space. No twisting of the rope if used properly. Plenty of holding power.
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socalclimber
Jun 11, 2010, 11:13 PM
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roy_hinkley_jr wrote: socalclimber wrote: I just don't see any issue with using a munter to belay a second with. More to the point, it's better than ANY slotted belay device for belaying a second off the anchor. No issues with lowering if they're hanging in space. No twisting of the rope if used properly. Plenty of holding power.
That's my thinking.
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hafilax
Jun 11, 2010, 11:27 PM
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IME, fanboys of the Munter are either old or European.
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socalclimber
Jun 11, 2010, 11:42 PM
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hafilax wrote: IME, fanboys of the Munter are either old or European.
Well, I look at it this way, I'm not euro, but I am old. Either way, I'm old enough and experienced enough to have a wide variety of tricks in my magic bag to get me out of trouble when I need them.
If that's a flaw, then I'm as flawed as they come.
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redlude97
Jun 12, 2010, 12:03 AM
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socalclimber wrote: hafilax wrote: IME, fanboys of the Munter are either old or European. Well, I look at it this way, I'm not euro, but I am old. Either way, I'm old enough and experienced enough to have a wide variety of tricks in my magic bag to get me out of trouble when I need them. If that's a flaw, then I'm as flawed as they come.
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socalclimber
Jun 12, 2010, 12:05 AM
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I would absolutely agree with that.
BTW, I never advocated using one on a regular basis.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Jun 12, 2010, 12:14 AM)
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dolphja
Jun 12, 2010, 12:30 AM
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socalclimber wrote: hafilax wrote: IME, fanboys of the Munter are either old or European. Well, I look at it this way, I'm not euro, but I am old. Either way, I'm old enough and experienced enough to have a wide variety of tricks in my magic bag to get me out of trouble when I need them. If that's a flaw, then I'm as flawed as they come.
i agree completely. cause if you drop your belay device... ya better know how to do the munter hitch
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redlude97
Jun 12, 2010, 12:36 AM
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socalclimber wrote: I would absolutely agree with that. BTW, I never advocated using one on a regular basis.
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