I'll ask myself every day, "Is there anything else I could have done to instruct or warn Mike and his belayer?" I don't know the answer to that but you can bet that I'll be spending a good bit of my time trying to figure that out.

I agree with the fact that people cause belay related climbing accidents and not the belay device. However, from what I've noticed, it seems like people fumble more with the cinch and use it incorrectly than any other belay device. I was reading a forum on MP.com where someone commented,

"it seems that everyone i've talked to has seen someone dropped or heard of a friend of theirs being dropped or nearly dropped with these things."

Could the fact that when the cinch is open the rope goes straight through the device, as oppose to the atc and gri gri where the rope is kinked through the device, possible cause the cinch to be more dangerous with lackadaisical belayers?

You're absolutely right. Is there any data out there that we can look at to see which is proven to be the safest device.

What I'm trying to say, is that I don't think that the cinch is the safest device.

You're absolutely right. Is there any data out there that we can look at to see which is proven to be the safest device.

What I'm trying to say, is that I don't think that the cinch is the safest device.

Rocclimber30,

can you clarify whether or not Mike was clipped into the 4th bolt? from your post I read it he was, but I don't want to assume.

Thanks.

Pure sampling bias on your part. Until this thread, I had never seen or heard of anyone being dropped by a Cinch, but I have seen and heard of more people than I can remember being dropped using Grigris and ATCs. You cannot draw conclusions about the relative safety of belay devices from such sources.

Jay

+1

He took what should of been a normal lead fall a couple of feet above the 4th bolt.... He free fell for about 10-15 feet before a little bit of rope drag from the rope running through the Trango Cinch could be heard.

PS: The lawyers will undoubtedly flip out when they read this. They want me to design products and write warnings that will keep me out of court. I want to design products and write warnings that will keep you off the ground. - MD

Could I re-design it so that it is fool-proof? I don't know the answers to any of those questions, so the nightmares continue.

Normally, when you have time to react to a fall, you can slip your right hand down and grab the rope with all your fingers. An unexpected fall from a short distance above the bolt, especially close to the ground (usually with very little slack out), means one has very little time to adjust the hand position before the rope starts to run through the device out of control.

Hmmm. I’m sorry j_ung, but I think I would respectfully disagree. Though, I’m not sure I actually disagree, because I’m not sure exactly what your argument is. The sentence is somewhat ambiguous.

If you mean that common decency outweighs any thing (concrete or abstract) that we “need” to climb, then I presume you mean the chance of psychological harm to family and friends multiplied by that harm outweighs the chance of information about an accident has of saving life multiplied by the good of saving that life.

If instead you mean that common decency outweighs any “need” to engage in the activity of climbing, then you seem to suggest that everybody should just stop climbing until family and friends have had sufficient time to mourn or an official accident report comes out.

Both of these seem false.

Perhaps you mean that common decency outweighs any “need” to satisfy various persons’ morbid curiosity. I’d agree with that. But no one had said anything to the contrary.

Could you clarify? I don’t intend this to be confrontational. It seems to me that most information about accidents should come out as soon as possible, save perhaps names, etcetera. I think this would include speculation based on scant details. As, even if incorrect, speculation can be informative. But I could be convinced otherwise.

w

Gri gri's have had far more accidents than the Cinch but since less people use them and even less know about them there is a lot more skepticism.

Patto, the way i belay with my Cinch i do not change my hand position when i catch a fall. I always have 3 fingers on the rope that act as the brake.

This is definitively NOT an official accident report and, to my knowledge, none of the parties involved has been contacted by any institution for an authoritative report. That said, no information is being actively repressed. There are no people to my knowledge withholding information. So, know in advance that what I post here is a third- and fourth-hand summary of what I have been able to piece together from various sources, including the belayer, who is continuing to work through his own recollection of this horrific accident. I know that the people involved in the fall and rescue intend to contact the organizations that report annually on Climbing and Alpine injuries and fatalities. For those of you seeking non-conjecture, authoritative finality, keep an eye out there.

The bottom line is that with any ground fall, if the rope or harness didn't break and bolts didn't fail - and in this case they didn't - the error is a human one. The failures that led to Mike's fall began long before his group hiked into the Darkside and they revolve around a set of beliefs and poor safety habits that are, unfortunately, all too pervasive in the climbing community. This includes “quickie” peer instruction for lead climbing/lead belaying; an over-reliance in the effectiveness of lock-assist devices; a willingness on the part of more experienced climbers to put less experienced belayers in situations requiring difficult catches (I've been told, and those of you who have belayed on Elephant man know, that it is a tough catch); and a general ambivalence toward the use of helmets - and I'm guilty of this too.

The belay device used at the time of Mike's fall was a Cinch, and the belayer inexperienced at using it. Clearly, it did not engage. Reports from the site indicate that the device was correctly loaded. Reports from the site also indicate that the belayer did not have a fixed hand on the brake. So, what this means is that the device did not engage and that the belayer was not using one of the fundamental actions required of a belayer: braking.

We know that a belayer should always have a fixed hand on the brake. But this accident presents a more complex situation that requires a look at what went wrong. On a Cinch, the device will not engage if 1) the device is manually held down, per Petzl's instructional videos on feeding rope to a lead climber; 2) the device is tipped on its side, which prevents rotation of the Cinch plates; or 3) if you belay from a position in which the pull force on the device is perpendicular to the belayer. This last scenario is particularly prevalent in a lead situation where the rope runs out (rather than up) from a belayer to the first bolt. Because of the steepness of Elephant man and the talus at the bottom, the latter situation seems to be the most likely.

Just because you know how to do something doesn't mean you know how to effectively teach it to someone else. What’s more, the people you choose to instruct become your responsibility. If you aren't qualified to teach someone don't pretend you are. Send them to someone who is qualified. And, if you're on the receiving end of instruction from your "buddy who's been doing it, like, forever and is really good" - use caution. Your instruction may well be inadequate.

I was not present when the accident occurred, but I was the 'buddy' who had given the belayer a 'quickie' instruction in the fall of 2009. Therefore I feel responsible for what happened.

I was the one who recommended the Cinch over grigri and ATC to the belayer involved for the lead belay, because I have witnessed an accident involving an ATC used by inexperienced belayer, who panicked and let go of the breaking end of the rope, and because I did not like the idea of manually blocking the grigri when feeding out the rope. Cinch, when used properly, allows easy rope release without need for blocking the cam. At the same time, when you hold it with your index finger and a thumb, the breaking end of the rope is always in your hand. You never need to let it go.

It was his first, I believe, instruction in lead belaying. We went to a gym and I explained how to hold the cinch properly with a finger and a thumb in the pivot hole and holding the breaking end of the rope in the hand. Unlike Grigri, the Cinch during the lead belay has to be tilted horizontally with its colored side up. When the leader falls, the cinch turns up and blocks the rope, providing the rope is held with the hand. When held properly, the rope is always in your hand and you never need to let go of it. See the demo video, around 2:10:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9TO5ikqXwo

Unfortunately, due to schedule conflict, I never had a chance to continue instructions and watch the belayer to practice more with the device. I was planning to go with him to the Red, but our weekend schedules never matched.

After the accident, my other friend experimented with the cinch and found that when it was held like grigri, i.e. vertically and not tilted, the device did not lock the rope. I did not know about this when I was giving my instructions, but I remember that I specifically told the belayer involved in the accident to hold the cinch horizontally, green side up, with index finger and the thumb in the pivot hole and the breaking hand always on the rope.

I don't know how the cinch was actually held during the accident.

I still think that when used correctly Cinch is a very safe device. However, the rules for using grigri are not applied to the cinch. These are two different devices and are supposed to be held differently. Perhaps, Trango needs to explore potentially dangerous positions of cinch and make the results of this study public.

Lee is correct by saying that when force is applied perpendicular to the belayer the cinch may not lock, especially since it is normally held horizontally. Like with all other devices, it is advisable that the belayer stays under the first draw.

I feel that my instructions were adequate and correct, but insufficient in terms of practicing time with the device. I don't know whether in 6 or so months between my lesson and the accident the belayer used the cinch correctly and did not confuse the grigri and cinch belay methods. I simply never had a chance to lead climb with him after that.

I also know that Mike was not very familiar with the Cinch. He asked me about the device a few months before the accident being curious about it. Therefore, he could not provide the belayer with proper instructions and he might suggest the incorrect grigri technique when using cinch.

Not exactly the paragon of clear thinking, that.

Jay