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kachoong


Jun 15, 2010, 1:21 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Anchor Building Using The Lead Rope [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
rgold wrote:
I posted these pictures six years ago. I guess that makes them newsworthy again?

The standard four-biner three-piece anchor. The slack rope tied to provide a redirection point is just an extra option. I mention a butterfly knot for the "power point" but an overhand knot is fine too.



The six-biner three-piece anchor for situations in which the anchor pieces are inaccessible from the belay stance.


6 biner plus 15 + feet rope in service with 8 separate knot . you are lucky you haven't killed yourself since 1950 but do not push it

Cue the Fugees:

Building my anchor with his tricks (one time, one time)
Belayin' my life with his words (two times, two times)
Killing me slowly with Majid
Killing me slowly with Majid
Climbin' my whole life with his words
Killing me slowly with his wrongs


(This post was edited by kachoong on Jun 15, 2010, 1:22 PM)


dbogardus


Jun 15, 2010, 1:26 PM
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Re: [rgold] Anchor Building Using The Lead Rope [In reply to]
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Thanks for posting Richard. Those pictures are actually the ones I referenced in the OP.

In general, do you find that these are superior anchors to setting up a cordalette/sling system in terms of speed, equalization, adjustability, versatility?

(I understand of course there will still be applications for cord/sling configurations in particular situations)


Partner rgold


Jun 15, 2010, 1:41 PM
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Re: [dbogardus] Anchor Building Using The Lead Rope [In reply to]
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There is no One Right Way of course. And for big wall climbing and leading in blocks, cordelettes are the way to go.

As for the criteria mentioned:

1. Speed. About the same. (I know people won't believe this but it is true. Don't forget the cordelette has to be unwrapped and then wrapped up again.)

2. Equalization. There doesn't seem to be any such thing, even with extending systems. The rope method is as good as any other in distributing loads. Whether a rope or cordelette is used, load distribution can be improved by avoiding legs of very different lengths. Using dyneema slings on remote pieces to keep anchor arm lengths more nearly equal seems like a sensible idea.

3. Adjustability. Much better than cordelette.

4. Versatility. Much better in terms of anchor construction. However, a cordelette has some non-anchoring uses that can be helpful in emergencies.


psprings


Jun 15, 2010, 2:53 PM
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Re: [rgold] Anchor Building Using The Lead Rope [In reply to]
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I personally use slings most of the time for the simple fact that I like self-equalizing anchors... I don't know how you could do it with the rope without getting pretty crazy or using more gear than with slings.


ladyscarlett


Jun 15, 2010, 3:46 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Anchor Building Using The Lead Rope [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:

This is not a trip to Disney Land . you do not go on the multi-pitch wall with your sport gear. there are set of things that goes on the wall and those are mandatory.
people have died, frozen to death on the wall for not having anchor material.

Humph!

It's not a trip to Disneyland? Damnit! Was looking forward to taking my pic with the dude dressed up as John Muir at the top of Half Dome.

Those people you talk about who didn't have anchor material. Would their situation been different if they could tie in with the rope?

Sport gear...heh, nice. I'll tell my #3 that he's 'sport gear.'

Thought to tie it up. Just cause me and my buddies might forget stuff, doesn't take away from the importance of knowing how to deal with what you have at hand, like tieing in with the rope.

2p

LS


sittingduck


Jun 15, 2010, 4:07 PM
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Anchor Building Using The Lead Rope [In reply to]
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Here is a multi-pitch anchor made from the lead rope that I posted a while ago. Looks like a mess in the photo but it actually is self-equalizing and redundant Crazy


acorneau


Jun 15, 2010, 6:37 PM
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Re: [kachoong] Anchor Building Using The Lead Rope [In reply to]
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kachoong wrote:
Cue the Fugees Roberta Flack:

Building my anchor with his tricks (one time, one time)
Belayin' my life with his words (two times, two times)
Killing me slowly with Majid
Killing me slowly with Majid
Climbin' my whole life with his words
Killing me slowly with his wrongs

Fixed! Wink


(This post was edited by acorneau on Jun 15, 2010, 6:54 PM)


kachoong


Jun 16, 2010, 5:11 AM
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Re: [acorneau] Anchor Building Using The Lead Rope [In reply to]
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acorneau wrote:
kachoong wrote:
Cue the Fugees Roberta Flack:

Building my anchor with his tricks (one time, one time)
Belayin' my life with his words (two times, two times)
Killing me slowly with Majid
Killing me slowly with Majid
Climbin' my whole life with his words
Killing me slowly with his wrongs

Fixed! Wink

You're so old school!


vegastradguy


Jun 16, 2010, 11:22 AM
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Re: [kachoong] Anchor Building Using The Lead Rope [In reply to]
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most amga guides will tell you that building the rope with a single leader is not practical- which, from their perspective as a GUIDE is very true.

AMGA guides have a very different perspective on this sort of thing than most climbers.

that said, if i'm block leading, i'm probably not going to build anchors with the rope- kind of a PITA imho, but thats just my opinion- do what you like.


psprings


Jun 16, 2010, 11:30 AM
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Interesting Sittingduck. I'll have to play around with that some. Thanks for that post and the pictures.


sittingduck


Jun 16, 2010, 2:28 PM
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psprings wrote:
Interesting Sittingduck. I'll have to play around with that some. Thanks for that post and the pictures.

Hey, cool of you posting that, thanks!


Partner j_ung


Jun 17, 2010, 6:30 AM
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From another thread, for use with two bomb bolts. I think this is absolutely elegant.

bandycoot wrote:
I do a mixture between this a Jay's two quickdraw recommendation. Clip a draw on one bolt and clove hitch into the bottom of it. Take an 8 on a bight and clip that to the top of a quick draw on the 2nd bolt. Redirect the follower on the bottom of the 2nd quickdraw. When the 2nd arrives, they clove into the bottom of the quickdraw they are redirected through and backup using an 8 on a bight into the top of the 1st quickdraw. This way both are redundanct, whoever leads there is a free biner to redirect at the bottom of a quickdraw, attachment for everyone is with the rope to limit forces on the anchor if anything goes wrong, either person can lead without reconfiguring the anchor, no complicated anchoring systems that need to be reconfigured for each belay, and provided the bolts are good equalization isn't too big of an issue in my opinion. It's fast, efficient, and gets the job done.

Josh


patto


Jun 17, 2010, 7:34 AM
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Re: [welle] Anchor Building Using The Lead Rope [In reply to]
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So much misinformation here. Rgold has a good summary.

I pretty much use rope on every anchor I build and see little reason not to. It just as fast yet far more versatile. Great for swapping leads and otherwise just swap ends and don't worry about sorting the rope anyway. I used to carry a cordalette but I found that I rarely used it except for top ropes.

The only disadvantage that I can see is the inability to use the rest of the rope if you belayer is unconcious and 30m below you. But hey there is a very good chance that the remaining 20m isn't going to help you a whole lot in such a situation anyway.


ladyscarlett


Jun 18, 2010, 12:43 PM
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Re: [dbogardus] Anchor Building Using The Lead Rope [In reply to]
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Just to emphasize the danger as posted by majid.

Went on some multi-pitch these past few and because we had limited slings, and only one piece of anchor material, ended up using the rope to tie in on two pitches.

It worked great, allowing us to get in some really fun climbing. And I got a taste for it myself! A lot of rope management, but definitely something for me to know! Wish it were a little more self equalizing, but I'm sure I'll perfect the technique.

My vote is for knowing how to tie in with the rope. It's helped keep me safe and sound on that mountain!

safety third!

LS


MetalDemon


Jun 19, 2010, 8:45 PM
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http://climbinglife.com/...mbing-rope-3-57.html
Doesn't seam so hard...
If you don't want to be tied in to much think you can just clove the two outside pros and clip the middle. Take the loops from both and eight it.


(This post was edited by MetalDemon on Jun 19, 2010, 8:48 PM)


jt512


Jun 20, 2010, 10:37 AM
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MetalDemon wrote:
http://climbinglife.com/...mbing-rope-3-57.html
Doesn't seam so hard...
If you don't want to be tied in to much think you can just clove the two outside pros and clip the middle. Take the loops from both and eight it.

(This post was edited by MetalDemon on Jun 19, 2010, 8:48 PM)

Gotta wonder what the unedited version looked like.

Jay


Gmburns2000


Jun 20, 2010, 11:10 AM
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Re: [rgold] Anchor Building Using The Lead Rope [In reply to]
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rgold wrote:
There is no One Right Way of course. And for big wall climbing and leading in blocks, cordelettes are the way to go.

As for the criteria mentioned:

1. Speed. About the same. (I know people won't believe this but it is true. Don't forget the cordelette has to be unwrapped and then wrapped up again.)

2. Equalization. There doesn't seem to be any such thing, even with extending systems. The rope method is as good as any other in distributing loads. Whether a rope or cordelette is used, load distribution can be improved by avoiding legs of very different lengths. Using dyneema slings on remote pieces to keep anchor arm lengths more nearly equal seems like a sensible idea.

3. Adjustability. Much better than cordelette.

4. Versatility. Much better in terms of anchor construction. However, a cordelette has some non-anchoring uses that can be helpful in emergencies.

I've used this before and like it OK, but I feel it is much quicker to use a cordallette. Of course, your results vary.

I also sometimes wonder about reducing the rope length for the next pitch. That hasn't happened to me yet, but I can see the possibility.

Also, if I use the same anchor to belay the new leader (after we've swapped), if the belay is somewhat steep, and if I can't communicate with the new leader after (s)he has put me on belay as the second, then there is the chance that there could be a fair amount of slack in the system as I break down the anchor before I start climbing. Obviously, if I can communicate with the leader above me then the slack can be taken up as the anchor is broken down, but without good communication this can cause problems.

Another disadvantage I've found in this set up is the number of twists in the rope at the end of the day. It doesn't happen often, but if we've clove hitched the hell out of the rope all day then I find it more difficult to keep the rope "flat" late in the day.


curt


Jun 20, 2010, 1:58 PM
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Re: [majid_sabet] Anchor Building Using The Lead Rope [In reply to]
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majid_sabet wrote:
ladyscarlett wrote:
Hmmm

Interesting responses...

Anchor building with the rope was standard practice 'back in the day' or so I heard, and even though I always carry some kind of cordelette, I think it's a valuable thing to know.

For example, if you're on a multipitch and you forget to grab the anchor material from your follower(s). Or you forget it on the ground, or you needed to use it for something else entirely, or one of the handful of situations that are not ideal in any way and you find yourself at the anchor with the only thing to use as rigging is your rope.

This seems like it might not happen, which isn't often. But I've seen it happen twice on a long multi pitch , and I know my buddies were glad they had some idea of how to build an anchor using the rope. One of them also likes the idea of using the rope as anchor when swinging leads because he finds it 'elegant.' But I don't know about that one. It sure seems to sound cool though, in that Old Skool kind of way.

It will leave you with less rope to lead with, and it may be a little more complicated, but I think it's worth knowing how. Personally, I've tried to understand the rigging, but haven't been able to get it straight in my brain to actually use it on the wall. Thus, I'm still practicing by the campfire still...

good luck!

ls

This is not a trip to Disney Land . you do not go on the multi-pitch wall with your sport gear. there are set of things that goes on the wall and those are mandatory.
people have died, frozen to death on the wall for not having anchor material.

...probably why Joshua Tree is littered with frozen bodies.

Curt


tradmanclimbs


Jun 20, 2010, 3:22 PM
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Useing the rope to build the anchor is all good untill your partner chickens out of the next lead. then it sucks total dog snotCool

Often on multi pitch i lead every pitch so it's a no brainer to use a diferent system than the rope.


patto


Jun 20, 2010, 4:37 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote:
I also sometimes wonder about reducing the rope length for the next pitch. That hasn't happened to me yet, but I can see the possibility.
Running out of rope has happened to me or my partners several times. Its no big deal you just build and anchor where you can or simul climb. I link pitches all the time so I always push the limits of my rope.

Gmburns2000 wrote:
Another disadvantage I've found in this set up is the number of twists in the rope at the end of the day.
I can't say I have EVER experience that. Clove hitches should twist your rope.

tradmanclimbs wrote:
Useing the rope to build the anchor is all good untill your partner chickens out of the next lead. then it sucks total dog snotCool
This often can be accomplished quite quickly by swapping ends. I do that all the time. Though when you are in a hanging belay with two ropes, on on each leg and BOTH your seconds refuse to take the next pitch on Snake Dike it makes it kind of difficult. With fog, cold, wind and the possibility of rain that was the last straw and I call the bail. Angelic


tradmanclimbs


Jun 20, 2010, 4:53 PM
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Swapping ends when the ropes are the anchor is unnessicary added danger to a big climb. I use a super slick system with a single 4ft NYLON runner to make my anchors when leading in blocks.


MetalDemon


Jun 20, 2010, 6:58 PM
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jt512 wrote:
MetalDemon wrote:
http://climbinglife.com/...mbing-rope-3-57.html
Doesn't seam so hard...
If you don't want to be tied in to much think you can just clove the two outside pros and clip the middle. Take the loops from both and eight it.

(This post was edited by MetalDemon on Jun 19, 2010, 8:48 PM)

Gotta wonder what the unedited version looked like.

Jay
Same thing but with a screwed up link.
Thanks


Partner rgold


Jun 20, 2010, 8:58 PM
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MetalDemon wrote:
http://climbinglife.com/...mbing-rope-3-57.html
Doesn't seam so hard...
If you don't want to be tied in to much think you can just clove the two outside pros and clip the middle. Take the loops from both and eight it.

It isn't at all hard, and the method presented in the video is almost identical to the one I described. The difference is in the formation of the master point, and in that regard the method I described is, as far as I can tell, is both simpler and better.

Some advantages:

1. The method I described doesn't require you to estimate the length of anything that is later to be knotted.

2. The method I described uses several feet less rope. If that third anchor point has to be placed a lot higher than the first two, then the method I described saves a lot of rope.

3. The method I described works identically for any number of anchor points, the video method has to be modified for four (or more) points.

4. The method I described utilizes the full equalizing potential of the clove hitches; the video method reintroduces the cordelette-style tying of the power point knot, which can result in poor load distribution if extra slack in a strand develops.

5. The method I described makes it easier to switch belayers because it does not involve the additional clove hitched biner clipped to the belay loop, which may have to be adjusted if a new belayer ties in.


MetalDemon


Jun 20, 2010, 10:22 PM
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rgold wrote:
MetalDemon wrote:
http://climbinglife.com/...mbing-rope-3-57.html
Doesn't seam so hard...
If you don't want to be tied in to much think you can just clove the two outside pros and clip the middle. Take the loops from both and eight it.

It isn't at all hard, and the method presented in the video is almost identical to the one I described. The difference is in the formation of the master point, and in that regard the method I described is, as far as I can tell, is both simpler and better.

Some advantages:

1. The method I described doesn't require you to estimate the length of anything that is later to be knotted.

2. The method I described uses several feet less rope. If that third anchor point has to be placed a lot higher than the first two, then the method I described saves a lot of rope.

3. The method I described works identically for any number of anchor points, the video method has to be modified for four (or more) points.

4. The method I described utilizes the full equalizing potential of the clove hitches; the video method reintroduces the cordelette-style tying of the power point knot, which can result in poor load distribution if extra slack in a strand develops.

5. The method I described makes it easier to switch belayers because it does not involve the additional clove hitched biner clipped to the belay loop, which may have to be adjusted if a new belayer ties in.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the two ways you describe. Like you say its not that different, really just showing a video if that helps the op at all.

I think knowing at least a couple ways of belaying off the rope is a must even if you rarely use them. In a more practical application I'd see using the rope to tie off to something in the distance or a big boulder thingamadoo. Crazy

I think easiest way is to just clove the two end pros and loop the middles then tie off with an eight.


Partner j_ung


Jun 21, 2010, 6:57 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote:
Useing the rope to build the anchor is all good untill your partner chickens out of the next lead. then it sucks total dog snotCool

Often on multi pitch i lead every pitch so it's a no brainer to use a diferent system than the rope.

With some rope-made anchors, it's far easier to lead in blocks than you think. Take, for example, this one: http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2350584#2350584. Atomic-clip-style anchors, like the three-loop 8, are also pretty easy.

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