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pacman529


Jun 21, 2010, 7:34 AM
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team training help
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Hey I am in the process of starting a Climbing team at my University, and there is a good possibility that we may not have a coach. If we don't have a coach, can anyone give us some ideas for exercise/training regiments that can help make us a competitive team?
Any and all help is appreciated!


bustloose


Jun 21, 2010, 12:00 PM
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i bet 100 internet dollars that someone tells you to buy The Self Coached Climber...

if you want to be a competitive team, and none of you is experienced enough to be the coach, then i hate to break it to you, but you're not going to be very competitive. getting strong is easy, getting good is very very very difficult.


pacman529


Jun 21, 2010, 1:05 PM
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bustloose wrote:
i bet 100 internet dollars that someone tells you to buy The Self Coached Climber...

if you want to be a competitive team, and none of you is experienced enough to be the coach, then i hate to break it to you, but you're not going to be very competitive. getting strong is easy, getting good is very very very difficult.
wait, you are saying that one of the teammates could coach? because that very well may be possible. but even if we don't do that well, just competing and having fun is what it's all about.


ceebo


Jun 21, 2010, 4:55 PM
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Seems simple enuf, find the limit grade of your weakest climber and then start the team from their.

The better climbers most likely have better skill and physical abillity all round.. but i guess the technique should really be the focus of what they share with the lower climbers, by talking and by practical. The physical side will just grow as a side product.

Well atleast if i was in such a team.. id be gunning for us all pushing the same or very close to the same grades. And all being on the same wave length about technique. Im still watching loads of comps on youtube and other sources in my spare time just to see how diffrent people solve the same route/problems.

I cant really see the point in being a team if your all kinde working at your own level.


pacman529


Jun 21, 2010, 8:03 PM
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ceebo wrote:
Seems simple enuf, find the limit grade of your weakest climber and then start the team from their.

The better climbers most likely have better skill and physical abillity all round.. but i guess the technique should really be the focus of what they share with the lower climbers, by talking and by practical. The physical side will just grow as a side product.

Well atleast if i was in such a team.. id be gunning for us all pushing the same or very close to the same grades. And all being on the same wave length about technique. Im still watching loads of comps on youtube and other sources in my spare time just to see how diffrent people solve the same route/problems.

I cant really see the point in being a team if your all kinde working at your own level.

i can see were you are coming from but there are a few problems. first of all, we would have quite a range of the levels of capabilities, and so it would be tough for us to do that. also, it would be tough for us because at the rock wall at our school, it's sort of hard for us to grade our climbs, because not enough people come through our school's wall to be able to get a good idea of the ratings of different climbs.


bustloose


Jun 22, 2010, 7:13 AM
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ceebo wrote:
Seems simple enuf, find the limit grade of your weakest climber and then start the team from their.

The better climbers most likely have better skill and physical abillity all round.. but i guess the technique should really be the focus of what they share with the lower climbers, by talking and by practical. The physical side will just grow as a side product.

Well atleast if i was in such a team.. id be gunning for us all pushing the same or very close to the same grades. And all being on the same wave length about technique. Im still watching loads of comps on youtube and other sources in my spare time just to see how diffrent people solve the same route/problems.

I cant really see the point in being a team if your all kinde working at your own level.

this is just plain retarded.

of course everyone is working at their own level, that is the entire concept of training together. The weaker climbers generally get inspired by trying to catch up to the stronger climbers, who in turn provide feedback to them, and are often motivated by the improvement.

everyone has their own technique, also part of being involved in an individual sport. you have a coach who guides each *individual* person to a best fit of climbing style, strength and technique.

i think it would be best if you didn't respond to things you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about.

pacman - yes, i am suggesting that one of your better climbers take the reigns for the team, but only if they are also a good teacher.


ceebo


Jun 22, 2010, 9:15 AM
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bustloose wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Seems simple enuf, find the limit grade of your weakest climber and then start the team from their.

The better climbers most likely have better skill and physical abillity all round.. but i guess the technique should really be the focus of what they share with the lower climbers, by talking and by practical. The physical side will just grow as a side product.

Well atleast if i was in such a team.. id be gunning for us all pushing the same or very close to the same grades. And all being on the same wave length about technique. Im still watching loads of comps on youtube and other sources in my spare time just to see how diffrent people solve the same route/problems.

I cant really see the point in being a team if your all kinde working at your own level.

this is just plain retarded.

of course everyone is working at their own level, that is the entire concept of training together. The weaker climbers generally get inspired by trying to catch up to the stronger climbers, who in turn provide feedback to them, and are often motivated by the improvement.

everyone has their own technique, also part of being involved in an individual sport. you have a coach who guides each *individual* person to a best fit of climbing style, strength and technique.

i think it would be best if you didn't respond to things you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about.

pacman - yes, i am suggesting that one of your better climbers take the reigns for the team, but only if they are also a good teacher.

Bolix m8. They all need to be climbing the same projects, how can they get to know each others strengths and weakness if their all doing their own thing?.. if they cant understand they way each other climb then they cant give good feedback.

So whats your answer? a guy whos on 8a should simply blast through a 6a and then say to the guy who cant do the 6a ''thats how its done!''. How is that helping?. He needs to take the time to climb every move with the guy and take into acount all the factors like hieght and diffrent styles of technique.
Its not somthing he can teach the guy by just flashing routes ''copy me'' and then getting on with his own thing.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 22, 2010, 9:17 AM)


bustloose


Jun 22, 2010, 1:37 PM
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ceebo wrote:
bustloose wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Seems simple enuf, find the limit grade of your weakest climber and then start the team from their.

The better climbers most likely have better skill and physical abillity all round.. but i guess the technique should really be the focus of what they share with the lower climbers, by talking and by practical. The physical side will just grow as a side product.

Well atleast if i was in such a team.. id be gunning for us all pushing the same or very close to the same grades. And all being on the same wave length about technique. Im still watching loads of comps on youtube and other sources in my spare time just to see how diffrent people solve the same route/problems.

I cant really see the point in being a team if your all kinde working at your own level.

this is just plain retarded.

of course everyone is working at their own level, that is the entire concept of training together. The weaker climbers generally get inspired by trying to catch up to the stronger climbers, who in turn provide feedback to them, and are often motivated by the improvement.

everyone has their own technique, also part of being involved in an individual sport. you have a coach who guides each *individual* person to a best fit of climbing style, strength and technique.

i think it would be best if you didn't respond to things you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about.

pacman - yes, i am suggesting that one of your better climbers take the reigns for the team, but only if they are also a good teacher.

Bolix m8. They all need to be climbing the same projects, how can they get to know each others strengths and weakness if their all doing their own thing?.. if they cant understand they way each other climb then they cant give good feedback.

So whats your answer? a guy whos on 8a should simply blast through a 6a and then say to the guy who cant do the 6a ''thats how its done!''. How is that helping?. He needs to take the time to climb every move with the guy and take into acount all the factors like hieght and diffrent styles of technique.
Its not somthing he can teach the guy by just flashing routes ''copy me'' and then getting on with his own thing.

you, are a complete and utter idiot. this much is clear. i have not suggested anything like what you have described.

how many years have you coached climbing for? no? none? so not 15 years like i have? right then. STFU.


ceebo


Jun 22, 2010, 4:12 PM
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bustloose wrote:
ceebo wrote:
bustloose wrote:
ceebo wrote:
Seems simple enuf, find the limit grade of your weakest climber and then start the team from their.

The better climbers most likely have better skill and physical abillity all round.. but i guess the technique should really be the focus of what they share with the lower climbers, by talking and by practical. The physical side will just grow as a side product.

Well atleast if i was in such a team.. id be gunning for us all pushing the same or very close to the same grades. And all being on the same wave length about technique. Im still watching loads of comps on youtube and other sources in my spare time just to see how diffrent people solve the same route/problems.

I cant really see the point in being a team if your all kinde working at your own level.

this is just plain retarded.

of course everyone is working at their own level, that is the entire concept of training together. The weaker climbers generally get inspired by trying to catch up to the stronger climbers, who in turn provide feedback to them, and are often motivated by the improvement.

everyone has their own technique, also part of being involved in an individual sport. you have a coach who guides each *individual* person to a best fit of climbing style, strength and technique.

i think it would be best if you didn't respond to things you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about.

pacman - yes, i am suggesting that one of your better climbers take the reigns for the team, but only if they are also a good teacher.

Bolix m8. They all need to be climbing the same projects, how can they get to know each others strengths and weakness if their all doing their own thing?.. if they cant understand they way each other climb then they cant give good feedback.

So whats your answer? a guy whos on 8a should simply blast through a 6a and then say to the guy who cant do the 6a ''thats how its done!''. How is that helping?. He needs to take the time to climb every move with the guy and take into acount all the factors like hieght and diffrent styles of technique.
Its not somthing he can teach the guy by just flashing routes ''copy me'' and then getting on with his own thing.

you, are a complete and utter idiot. this much is clear. i have not suggested anything like what you have described.

how many years have you coached climbing for? no? none? so not 15 years like i have? right then. STFU.

I have coached climbing for a few years now. Its no 15 years.. but its long enuf to know that 1 guy alone with limited experiance (i assume) is going too Seriusly strugle building a structured training program for each individual climber while also keeping himself right.

He said its likely they wont have a coach.. im only making suggestions for how they ''could'' best spread the load over the full team and all play a part in the team development. Whats wrong with that?. Why should they not all question each other over suggested training plans.. why should they not all take an active interest in WTF it is their doing?..

They could work a projects as a team, the more able climbers will still get technique training and perhaps endurence, but more to the point they can all share feedback and diffrent solotions/tips. Nothing is stoping the more able climbers.. or even all of them doing hangboard or campus training ETC near the end of the session/s.

I have not ''ran'' my own team so to speak.. but i do know its not easy, and for you too suggest the advice that 1 guy alone can just step up and do it is bad, even if he is a good teacher. He will more likely get pissed off and just leave. Its a hell of alot of work for him to take on alone..

And why should 1 guy alone step up? atleast if they ''fail'' (not that it really matters) the blame will be shared. No person will be singled out and feel like he let the team down with poor training plans.


(This post was edited by ceebo on Jun 22, 2010, 4:28 PM)


pacman529


Jun 23, 2010, 9:29 AM
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sorry ceebo, but i think i'm going to have to go with bustloose on this one. I definitely can see the advantage of the more experienced climbers giving tips and advice to some of the less experienced climbers on technique and such. going through the climb with them step by step and working through it if the lower guy is having trouble, but at the same time it would be very bad for the more experienced climber to not work on any problems that are a challenge for him so that he can improve his own technique, even if those problems are out of the league of the lesser teammate.

I do see where you are coming from about how having one of the teammates taking the reigns as "coach" of the team. i think it would be more beneficial for the team as a whole for everyone to give tips and feedback to everyone else. That being said, I think that it would not hurt if there were a professor or someone (not on the team) to better structure practices for everyone's benefit ("ok so today we are going to work on endurance, so i want everyone doing laps on a moderate route for their climbing level." etc.) although, if a proper coach were unavailable, and if a player were to step forward as team captain or something to do a similar role, i would not stop them.


jmeizis


Jun 23, 2010, 9:43 AM
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Where's your team at. I might know someone.


pacman529


Jun 24, 2010, 5:39 AM
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jmeizis wrote:
Where's your team at. I might know someone.
lol. farmville virginia.


fluxus


Jun 25, 2010, 10:21 PM
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Well since no one has done it yet, I might as well:

You should get the Self-Coached Climber. :-)

Seriously thought the main problem you will have to deal with right away is how to structure practices. If practices are not well structured the team will loose energy quickly.

Keep the structure simple. A very general (and overly simple) road map might look like this:

team practice is 2 -3 days per week.
practice is expected to last 5 hours (you can alt. between shorter and longer days, or have different team members train on different days depending on how many climbers you have)


1- 30 - 45 min. climbing warm-up
2- 30 min. light stretching done as a group.
3- 1.5 hour movement training. (on some days divide team into groups of mixed ability, on other days group climbers by ability -> depends on activities.)
4- 1.5 hours climbing specific fitness training (again, on some days divide team into groups of mixed ability, on other days group climbers by ability -> depends on activities.)
5- 30 - 45 min cool down & stretching.

It's alright to have the climbers of different abilities give each other advice but you should emphasize activities that don't just make the better climbers the coaches for the less experienced climbers. There are a number of ways to get climbers interacting that are more creative and allow for a more dynamic participation. I'm thinking of the stick traverse or the eliminator traverse. In both cases the activities are simple enough that less experienced climbers can take a turn leading the activity and learn as they do.

Another important aspect of having a team is to assess the training resources you have access to (indoors and out). How many routes and of what grades and what quality? What can your training resources support and how well does it match your training, performance, and competitive goals? Its often assumed that a gym IS a good training resource, but it takes a great deal of work to make a gym a training gym, rather than a mediocre indoor crag. (which most gyms are). Having a team by definition means needing course setters that understand your goals and needs.

I would emphasize base building, probably even your better climbers will not have well developed bases, and since you are at a college many of your climbers will only have a couple of years experience or less. As a general principal you can begin by teaching the climbers how to control the volume and difficulty of the climbing they do each day. You should also start the season with some form of assessment. There are some coaches who emphasize a physical assessment. I worry less about that than I do the performance assessment and movement assessments. That is, getting a good understanding of what the climber has done in the past year. This serves as a basis for determining the intensity and volume of training that each athlete should use in the short term. It also tells you what the climber should expect in the next 6 months to a year if they utilize some sort of structure.

Sorry for the lack of specifics here, but you raise huge issues and its hard to go into the nitty gritty on such a big topic.


(This post was edited by fluxus on Jun 26, 2010, 8:36 AM)


bustloose


Jun 30, 2010, 11:52 AM
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yes. 100 internet dollars.

and having coached climbing for a LONG time, i would suggest that 5 hours is far too long people get far too tired, and also lose focus. 3 hours is plenty, and 2 is ideal. structure workouts accordingly. (this 1 hour warm up is ridiculous, and a 45 minute cool down is unnecessary, people should stretch on their own when practice has ended.)

i do not have the time or the inclination to tell you how to train a climbing team for free, but i will tell you that you should look at the comp schedule and goals of your team, and then plan your training accordingly so that you build up a base of stamina, and peak power at the right times if you are bouldering, or keep a power base and peak stamina at the right times if you are climbing routes. there are endless workouts you can do to meet these goals.

movement should take care of itself in each and every move of every workout. only focus on technique when you see people displaying specific technique deficiencies or problems.


pacman529


Jul 1, 2010, 7:51 AM
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as far as comps themselves go, generally at the college level, does anyone know the usual difficulty range for routes and boulder problems?


fluxus


Jul 1, 2010, 9:19 AM
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bustloose wrote:
and having coached climbing for a LONG time,

O.K. but from your profile I see that I've been a coach longer than you have been climbing. Just say'n!

In reply to:
i would suggest that 5 hours is far too long people get far too tired, and also lose focus. 3 hours is plenty, and 2 is ideal.

Well, it depends upon the size of the team and the location of the training sessions. I admit I was making certain assumptions concerning these issues. A small team at a large crag or gym, could be done in 2-3 hours. On the other hand a big team in a small gym = training will need to be done in shifts and will take a very long time.


In reply to:
(this 1 hour warm up is ridiculous, and a 45 minute cool down is unnecessary, people should stretch on their own when practice has ended.)

that's pretty strong language. A great deal of work gets done in a warm-up, this is the very best place to do certain types of movement training and working on specific issues for each climber ranging from anxiety over lead climbing, to climbers who avoid certain types of movement or holds, and so on. Further, a good cool down = less soreness / stiffness in the days to come. Finally, few climbers can be counted on to do good stretching on their own. Also keep in mind the context of the question. College climbers with only a couple of years experience are not going to know what to stretch or how to stretch in ways that make sense for climbing so they will need some help learning how to do this. Perhaps after going through a few climbing specific stretching session with the team and learning how its done they could shift to doing their stretches alone.

In reply to:
movement should take care of itself in each and every move of every workout. only focus on technique when you see people displaying specific technique deficiencies or problems.

Movement only takes care of itself for a very small number of individuals. Many hour can be spent working on movement even with climbers who red point 5.14 or harder and boulder V10 or harder. Of course quantitive movement analysis procedures are necessary and few people in the climbing world know these. nonetheless, the point remains that movement is an extremely complex issue in climbing, that few people have ever taken the time to understand, it can't be dismissed. Saying that, I admit that in the context of the OP my point is essentially academic because there is no one who is part of the team that is going to know enough kinesiology to take on such issues or know how to address them.


younggun


Jul 2, 2010, 3:33 PM
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I agree, that 2 hours is plenty long enough if you are climbing the entire time with limited rests. Volume of movement is the key to improvement the first few years of climbing, no substitute for that. Any longer, and kids or adults loose interest, rest more, etc.

So, what is quantitative movement analysis and how could it benefit a climber?

In my experience, movement skills are developed over time, by climbing many moves over a period of years, but not taught. Yes, technical skills can be taught, movement skills however, are more intuitive and come with the feel that is unique to that individual. The best climbers in the world will climb the same high level problem and look completely different, as they have developed different movement skills over the time unique to that individual.


pacman529


Jul 6, 2010, 7:16 AM
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younggun wrote:
I agree, that 2 hours is plenty long enough if you are climbing the entire time with limited rests. Volume of movement is the key to improvement the first few years of climbing, no substitute for that. Any longer, and kids or adults loose interest, rest more, etc.

So, what is quantitative movement analysis and how could it benefit a climber?

In my experience, movement skills are developed over time, by climbing many moves over a period of years, but not taught. Yes, technical skills can be taught, movement skills however, are more intuitive and come with the feel that is unique to that individual. The best climbers in the world will climb the same high level problem and look completely different, as they have developed different movement skills over the time unique to that individual.

i completely agree. i, myself for example, am not very strong, especially in the arms, but i am 6 foot 3 and have a huge reach, so there are some moves that i can just skip entirely whereas some shorter stronger people are more apt to powering through it.


bustloose


Jul 6, 2010, 11:54 AM
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fluxus wrote:
bustloose wrote:
and having coached climbing for a LONG time,

O.K. but from your profile I see that I've been a coach longer than you have been climbing. Just say'n!

In reply to:
i would suggest that 5 hours is far too long people get far too tired, and also lose focus. 3 hours is plenty, and 2 is ideal.

Well, it depends upon the size of the team and the location of the training sessions. I admit I was making certain assumptions concerning these issues. A small team at a large crag or gym, could be done in 2-3 hours. On the other hand a big team in a small gym = training will need to be done in shifts and will take a very long time.


In reply to:
(this 1 hour warm up is ridiculous, and a 45 minute cool down is unnecessary, people should stretch on their own when practice has ended.)

that's pretty strong language. A great deal of work gets done in a warm-up, this is the very best place to do certain types of movement training and working on specific issues for each climber ranging from anxiety over lead climbing, to climbers who avoid certain types of movement or holds, and so on. Further, a good cool down = less soreness / stiffness in the days to come. Finally, few climbers can be counted on to do good stretching on their own. Also keep in mind the context of the question. College climbers with only a couple of years experience are not going to know what to stretch or how to stretch in ways that make sense for climbing so they will need some help learning how to do this. Perhaps after going through a few climbing specific stretching session with the team and learning how its done they could shift to doing their stretches alone.

In reply to:
movement should take care of itself in each and every move of every workout. only focus on technique when you see people displaying specific technique deficiencies or problems.

Movement only takes care of itself for a very small number of individuals. Many hour can be spent working on movement even with climbers who red point 5.14 or harder and boulder V10 or harder. Of course quantitive movement analysis procedures are necessary and few people in the climbing world know these. nonetheless, the point remains that movement is an extremely complex issue in climbing, that few people have ever taken the time to understand, it can't be dismissed. Saying that, I admit that in the context of the OP my point is essentially academic because there is no one who is part of the team that is going to know enough kinesiology to take on such issues or know how to address them.

5 hours of training is ridiculous. i stand by this statement.
this is a climbing "team" made up of mostly newer climbers, they do not need a 1 hour warm-up, and if they can't be counted on to engage in proper cool down and stretching when you have given them a specific regimen then they don't belong on a competitive team.
I have trained small teams in huge empty gyms, big teams in small busy gyms and everything in between, if you are smart and creative, you can easily get an excellent training session completed in 2-3 hours. climbers should not train to muscle failure it is not beneficial, and newer climbers have much much lower thresholds for stamina.
even when i was competing on an international level, and training international athletes i was never in the gym for longer than 3 hours.

if you only focus on movement, then your climbers will not get strong. if you only focus on building power and stamina then you'll have technically deficient climbers, of course you need to focus on both, but *for the most part* movement takes care of itself. i'm obviously over-simplifying given that i am not going to spend hours talking about how to train climbers i've never seen climb...
people need to develop their own efficiencies - you just need to have someone who can watch and help and tweak. you don't need to spend an hour getting people to learn to pull with the right muscles, you explain it, you spend some time on it, then you tell them to put into practice in the workout, and you watch and help.
if you watch an athlete send a boulder problem you set for them, and you see where they can improve on movement, then you talk about it.


fluxus


Jul 8, 2010, 9:26 PM
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sidepull


Jul 9, 2010, 7:46 AM
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Re: [bustloose] team training help [In reply to]
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bustloose wrote:
i bet 100 internet dollars that someone tells you to buy The Self Coached Climber...

...

getting strong is easy, getting good is very very very difficult.

Ohh the irony is so thick! You sarcastically recommend exactly what should be recommended and then make a pretty sound statement, yet here you are, essentially back tracking on what it takes to get good. If you disagree with Fluxus, that's fine, but it only proves you have no idea what you're talking about and that the OP should completely disregard your advice because the only credentials you've provided prove your ignorance on the subject.


bustloose


Jul 13, 2010, 12:26 PM
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Re: [sidepull] team training help [In reply to]
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sidepull wrote:
bustloose wrote:
i bet 100 internet dollars that someone tells you to buy The Self Coached Climber...

...

getting strong is easy, getting good is very very very difficult.

Ohh the irony is so thick! You sarcastically recommend exactly what should be recommended and then make a pretty sound statement, yet here you are, essentially back tracking on what it takes to get good. If you disagree with Fluxus, that's fine, but it only proves you have no idea what you're talking about and that the OP should completely disregard your advice because the only credentials you've provided prove your ignorance on the subject.

i like that you're trying to "discredit" me by taking an incredibly broad statement and trying to apply it to a discussion that is becoming very specific.
i'm not even sure why you think i'm backtracking, but i also really don't care.
without a knowledeable coach, it will be very difficult to get "good" at climbing, but getting "strong" for climbing is comparatively quite easy. with relative beginners, including a beginner "coach" there is only so much technique you can work on - the almost blind leading the blind as it were - that is why i am suggesting that you let people sort out their own particular climbing style, and try to correct and guide as you see fit.

do you *really* expect someone to lay out an in depth training program, on the internet, for free? or even to discuss it in detail on a forum like this, in little out of context snippets?

if you want to tell people to disregard my advice based on a few flippant staments, then i guess that's your perogative, but the only person your hurting is them by telling them not to consider opposing sides of a discussion.

why don't you ask some of my junior world finalists about my ignorance of training for climbing? that should be enlightening.


bustloose


Jul 13, 2010, 12:31 PM
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Re: [fluxus] team training help [In reply to]
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fluxus, i'm sure we don't disagree as much as it seems we do. as i just mentioned above, i don't have the time, patience or inclination to get into a in depth discussion on coaching on the internet.

i made some rather broad statements that i maybe should not have made, or could have spent more time going into better detail.

the muscle failure comment was a poor assumption that your comments about 5 hour training sessions was leaning toward overtraining.

i'm not trying to be aggressive or have a go at you. i just use strong language sometimes.

if you want to discuss the future of coaching, then pm me, but as i said, i don't have a whole lot of spare time to devote to it...


yokese


Jul 13, 2010, 1:00 PM
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Re: [bustloose] team training help [In reply to]
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bustloose wrote:
i bet 100 internet dollars that someone tells you to buy The Self Coached Climber...

but you know who Fluxus is, don't you?
just curious...


bustloose


Jul 13, 2010, 6:53 PM
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Re: [yokese] team training help [In reply to]
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yokese wrote:
bustloose wrote:
i bet 100 internet dollars that someone tells you to buy The Self Coached Climber...

but you know who Fluxus is, don't you?
just curious...

absolutely no idea. but i gather from your quotation work that he wrote the self coached climber?


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