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Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft*
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troutboy


Feb 4, 2009, 10:11 AM
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Re: [qwert] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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OK, here's my impression as a scientist and profesional writer.

It appears that you have already put a lot of time and effort into this document. There are some nice pictures and graphics (w/scale) to demonstrate biner types and characteristics; however, I think there are two problems:

1) You seem to have a Jekyll-Hyde aspect to your premise:

qwert wrote:

The Gear-Heads biner and quickdraw FAQ



What is this FAQ for?

stuff snipped....

qwert wrote:
but the goal of this FAQ is not to come to the conclusion "get biner XX by brand YY, because it is the best biner for everything of all time ...", since a lot of this is about personal preference.
as mentioned, the goal is to give an overview about what is available, and what does what.


With that out of the way, here is a list about what im trying to answer in this FAQ:

  • What types of biners are there, what are they used for and which ones should i get?

  • What types of quickdraws are there, what are they used for and which ones should i get?

  • What is the difference between cheap and expensive stuff?

  • Can biners still break?

These statements seem contradictory to me. Are you telling people what biner to buy or not ?

2) I cannot get past the hundreds of typos, spelling errors, and the poor grammar. As a writer, I find it hard to believe that if the writing is that sloppy, the research and opinions would be not be. I see you are in Germany, so perhaps English is not your first language. I think if you get someone to tidy the document, you might have something very worthwhile.

I don't want to seem too harsh here. I realize this is the internet and this is a draft version, but it really does need some editing.

When it is properly edited, the content may shine. From my perspective, assessing the content is not possible until the document is readable.

TS


qwert


Feb 4, 2009, 10:52 AM
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Re: [troutboy] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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troutboy wrote:
OK, here's my impression as a scientist and profesional writer.

It appears that you have already put a lot of time and effort into this document. There are some nice pictures and graphics (w/scale) to demonstrate biner types and characteristics; however, I think there are two problems:

1) You seem to have a Jekyll-Hyde aspect to your premise:

*snip*

These statements seem contradictory to me. Are you telling people what biner to buy or not ?
I am trying to get to suggestions by type of biner, not directly by brand. I know it is hard to read, but the following is my answer to that question:
qwert wrote:
So which biners and how many should i get?

Which ones you should get depends. apart from open gate strength (see can biners still break), its a matter of what suits you best.
Some people dont like small biners, some dont like wiregates, some want keylocks and so on.
Number wise you wont need many non locking biners, since non locking ones are mostly used in quickdraws. Two or three free ones should do it, to clip some random stuff, or for slings.
Lockers are needed for the belay device and for securing yourself to the belay, so that makes at least two, one of them being a big pear shaped one. Having some spare lockers is always nice, but if you are carrying so many that you are getting weighted down by them, you are doing something wrong.

As on which biners to get my suggestion would be to get a big biner, with keylock, high open gate strength, that is light and has a good price.
However such a biner doesnt exist.
As you can see in the list, you cant have everything. you can have a big and light and strong biner, but you cant have that for cheap. You can have the lightest biner that there is at the moment, but you cant have that biner being big and strong (with the new camp nano being even smaller).
there are also many different big, strong and cheap biners, but they arent light.
You have to ask your self whats the most important for you:
are you doing trad or alpine stuff with big racks and long routes? you might want to have a look at the weight and if you can use them with gloves.
Are you doing sport climbing with preclipped draws? wheight isnt an issue here, so get strong and easy to clip biners.
and so on ...

If you want specific information on a specific biner, you should look into the gear section of this site.
so of course i could say "get a WildCountry Helium", because that is the best all purpose biner, but that is my personal opinion, and also there might be a much better biner in the market next month. What i am trying to do is to help people to understand what they might need, and not simply a "GET THIS!!!".

In reply to:
2) I cannot get past the hundreds of typos, spelling errors, and the poor grammar. As a writer, I find it hard to believe that if the writing is that sloppy, the research and opinions would be not be. I see you are in Germany, so perhaps English is not your first language. I think if you get someone to tidy the document, you might have something very worthwhile.
I know, spelling and grammar are my weak points. Some of it might be due to the fact that i am not a native english speaker, but my german is also atrocious. Seems like i am just a moron when it comes to spelling, but unfortunately i am not moronic enough to get the disabled bonus for being a real dyslexic Crazy

In reply to:
I don't want to seem too harsh here. I realize this is the internet and this is a draft version, but it really does need some editing.
No problem, thats why i put it here in draft, as long as it is critics and not harrasment, i can deal with it.
I am rather slow with working on this thing, but eventually i do stuff.
And cool that you noticed the scale Cool Thats the most important thing in a picture!

qwert


jt512


Feb 4, 2009, 11:15 AM
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Re: [qwert] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:

The Gear-Heads biner and quickdraw FAQ



What is this FAQ for?
This FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) is trying to answer some of the recurring questions about carabiners and quickdraws.
Today we climbers are in the lucky situation to be able to choose between various biners. there are dozends of manufacturers out there, each again with a handfull of different biners. Not only do they come in different colors, they also come in various sizes and forms.
This FAQ should be a help in finding out which type of biner is used for what purpose, and the what pros and cons of the various biner types are.
With this you should be able to find out which biner you should get. I will often make mention of biners by name and by brand, and if i say "the Wild Country Helium is one of the best all purpose biners out there" you can shurely take this as a suggestion, but the goal of this FAQ is not to come to the conclusion "get biner XX by brand YY, because it is the best biner for everything of all time ...", since a lot of this is about personal preference.
as mentioned, the goal is to give an overview about what is available, and what does what.


disclaimer
Climbing is dangerous!!
Im trying to give the best advice i can, but i could be wrong. And even if all i tell you is right, you could still die climbing.
All this climbing is dangerous stuff that comes with your gear is there for a reason. Take this advices seriously!
You should not take this FAQ as your only source. the internet is a great thing, and you can get a lot of valuable information, but it is no replacement for proper training and a good book.
If youre new to climbing, take a course first, read on the subject, find someone experienced to go out with and so on.
Whatever you are doing, use your brain, be carefull and double check everything thats important.

Im not responsible for your actions. If you fuck it up, youre on your own!!


With that out of the way, here is a list about what im trying to answer in this FAQ:

  • What types of biners are there, what are they used for and which ones should i get?

  • What types of quickdraws are there, what are they used for and which ones should i get?

  • What is the difference between cheap and expensive stuff?

  • Can biners still break?

As far as I can tell, there is no reason to have the first two sections at all. Everybody knows what a FAQ is, and the title of the FAQ implies the what the scope of the FAQ (at least it would if you change the word "biner" to "crabiner," since not every n00b who might look at the FAQ will necessarily have heard the word "biner" before). At most, use one or two sentence to succinctly state the scope of the FAQ.

I don't see why you need the disclaimer at all.

Formatting: For the third or fourth time: Don't start a new line unless you are starting a new paragraph, and then leave exactly one blank line (that is, double space) between parargraphs.

Since you are stating prices in American dollars and cents, use the American format for dollar amounts, eg, $15.25, not 15,25$, or whatever it is you Euros do.

Bullet points. You have too many blank lines between bullet points. Either single space them or double space space them. Pick one style and stick with it.

Capitalization of headers. Either capitalize every word (except for standard non-capitalized little words) or capitalize just the first word. Pick one style and stick with it. And what about the title? Why is "Gear-Heads" capitalized but not "Biner" or "Quickdraw."

Finally, spell check the damn thing!

Jay


qwert


Feb 4, 2009, 11:36 AM
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Re: [jt512] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
As far as I can tell, there is no reason to have the first two sections at all. Everybody knows what a FAQ is, and the title of the FAQ implies the what the scope of the FAQ (at least it would if you change the word "biner" to "crabiner," since not every n00b who might look at the FAQ will necessarily have heard the word "biner" before). At most, use one or two sentence to succinctly state the scope of the FAQ.
I think it is a good idea to give a short overview about what this FAQ tries to accomplish. What could be bad about it?

In reply to:
I don't see why you need the disclaimer at all.
I also dont know why one would need that, but it makes me sleep better at night. somehow i feel its necessary, with all that warning labels on everything, and the fact that noone wants to take responsibility for ones actions. Its spreading world wide, but especially with the american sueing culture i feel its necessary.

In reply to:
Formatting: For the third or fourth time: Don't start a new line unless you are starting a new paragraph, and then leave exactly one blank line (that is, double space) between parargraphs.
you have a point there. I have tried it already (its quoted in one of my posts above), and you are right. I just have to figure out which paragraphs to kill, and wich ones to make more visible. I think i also should ad some headings.

In reply to:
Since you are stating prices in American dollars and cents, use the American format for dollar amounts, eg, $15.25, not 15,25$, or whatever it is you Euros do.
OK

In reply to:
Bullet points. You have too many blank lines between bullet points. Either single space them or double space space them. Pick one style and stick with it.
That seems to be an issue with the forum software.

Code
|ul| |li| Sample Text |/li| |/ul|  
|ul| |li| Sample Text |/li| |/ul|

turns to
  • Sample Text

  • Sample Text

(and the code tags do nothing on the forum code and also spaces in code gets ignored. the | in the code is supposed to be [ and ])
In reply to:
Capitalization of headers. Either capitalize every word (except for standard non-capitalized little words) or capitalize just the first word. Pick one style and stick with it. And what about the title? Why is "Gear-Heads" capitalized but not "Biner" or "Quickdraw."

Finally, spell check the damn thing!

Jay
The capitalization thing goes together with the spelling: I am a moron when it comes to that. I will try to put it all into an editor and let a spellcheck run over it, and try to read through it again at some point.

Finally is there a way to add an index of the headers, and make the headers links that lead to the sections?

qwert


(This post was edited by qwert on Feb 4, 2009, 11:42 AM)


jt512


Feb 4, 2009, 1:22 PM
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Re: [qwert] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
jt512 wrote:
As far as I can tell, there is no reason to have the first two sections at all. Everybody knows what a FAQ is, and the title of the FAQ implies the what the scope of the FAQ (at least it would if you change the word "biner" to "crabiner," since not every n00b who might look at the FAQ will necessarily have heard the word "biner" before). At most, use one or two sentence to succinctly state the scope of the FAQ.
I think it is a good idea to give a short overview about what this FAQ tries to accomplish.

One or two sentences max.

In reply to:
What could be bad about it?

Because nobody wants to read a bunch of wordy, redundant, meaningless text. The fundamental rule of technical writing is to make the communication as short as possible without losing clarity.

In reply to:
I don't see why you need the disclaimer at all.
I also dont know why one would need that, but it makes me sleep better at night. somehow i feel its necessary, with all that warning labels on everything, and the fact that noone wants to take responsibility for ones actions. Its spreading world wide, but especially with the american sueing culture i feel its necessary.


In reply to:
In reply to:
Bullet points. You have too many blank lines between bullet points. Either single space them or double space space them. Pick one style and stick with it.
That seems to be an issue with the forum software.

Code
|ul| |li| Sample Text |/li| |/ul|  
|ul| |li| Sample Text |/li| |/ul|

turns to
  • Sample Text

  • Sample Text

That's because you've marked it up wrong. Do this:


Code
[ul][li]Item 1 
[li]Item 2[/ul]


to get this:
  • Item 1
  • Item 2

Or this:


Code
[ul][li]Item 1 

[li]Item 2[/ul]


to get this:
  • Item 1

  • Item 2

Jay


macblaze


Feb 4, 2009, 6:03 PM
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Re: [troutboy] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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troutboy wrote:
OK, here's my impression as a scientist and profesional writer.

I once sent in a resume for a proofreader job with a typo in it. One should never cut corners when trying to impress people with your competence.


qwert


Feb 5, 2009, 2:03 AM
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Re: [jt512] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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So i have edited the first post, mostly for spelling and paragraphs.
I am still thinking that a disclaimer and a FAQ about the FAQ is a good idea. So people know what to find in the text. What also would be really nice would be a linked index. Anyone knows how to do that?
And if one doesnt want to read it, its easy to skip (hence the indent).

I know it is not perfect, but tell me if it is better or not. At the moment the old version is still the first post, but if i get positve feedback on this, i will edit it in.

The next post will be a bit harder, since that obviously needs way more spellchecking and subheadings. Also i have some Keywords in bold. Would it be better to make them italics, and just use bold for headings? another thing that i would like to do is to have the whole text justified (is this the right word? I mean that you dont have empty spaces at the end of a line). Personally i like that better. Is that possible? And if it is, is it a good idea or not?




The Gear-Heads carabiner and quickdraw FAQ



What is this FAQ for?
This FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) is trying to answer some of the recurring questions about carabiners and quickdraws. Today we climbers are in the lucky situation to be able to choose between various carabiners. there are dozens of manufacturers out there, each again with a handful of different carabiners. Not only do they come in different colors, they also come in various sizes and forms.

This FAQ should be a help in finding out which type of carabiner is used for what purpose, and the what pros and cons of the various carabiner types are.

With this you should be able to find out which carabiner you should get. I will often make mention of carabiners by name and by brand, and if i say "the Wild Country Helium is one of the best all purpose carabiners out there" you can surely take this as a suggestion, but the goal of this FAQ is not to come to the conclusion "get carabiner XX by brand YY, because it is the best carabiner for everything of all time ...", since a lot of this is about personal preference. As mentioned, the goal is to give an overview about what is available, and what does what.


Disclaimer
Climbing is dangerous!!
Im trying to give the best advice i can, but i could be wrong. And even if all i tell you is right, you could still die climbing. All this climbing is dangerous stuff that comes with your gear is there for a reason. Take this advices seriously! You should not take this FAQ as your only source. the internet is a great thing, and you can get a lot of valuable information, but it is no replacement for proper training and a good book. If you're new to climbing, take a course first, read on the subject, find someone experienced to go out with and so on. Whatever you are doing, use your brain, be careful and double check everything thats important.

Im not responsible for your actions. If you fuck it up, you're on your own!!


With that out of the way, here is a list about what I'm trying to answer in this FAQ:

  • What types of carabiners are there, what are they used for and which ones should i get?
  • What types of quickdraws are there, what are they used for and which ones should i get?
  • What is the difference between cheap and expensive stuff?
  • Can carabiners still break?



qwert


Feb 5, 2009, 2:40 AM
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Re: [qwert] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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Ok, so i have made some changes to the second part:
Lots of spell checking (but it probably still sucks Crazy), a few subheadings, and paragraph changes.

I also have made the descriptions of the pictures in italics, and gave shoos article a link.

Again: tell me wether its better and if i should edit in the original post.




  • What types of carabiners are there, what are they used for and which ones should i get?


There are many different types of carabiners out there.

First thing to distinguish them is the material they are made of. There is aluminum and steel.

Steel carabiners

Steel is stronger than aluminim, but its way heavier, so it doesn't get used much in climbing. Steel carabiners are mostly used in rescue work or in industrial purposes (and recently in slacklining). Sometimes it gets used in climbing, for example if one is climbing on very abrasive rock like sandstone, where the rope will take up small particles, abrading the belay carabiner very fast. In such a situation it also could make sense to use steel carabiners for your toprope powerpoint. If you decide to get steel carabiners, get some from respected manufacturers. Don't go to the nearest home depot and get the cheap things they have. these aren't meant for climbing use!

Aluminum carabiners

Aluminum (or better, the various aluminum alloys) is the standard material used for climbing carabiners. its light, and albeit weaker than steel still strong enough for carabiners. When looking at the different aluminum carabiners, the first thing you will notice is the different colors. If the carabiner is silver, its the color of the aluminum. if it isn't silver, it is anodized. The anodizing creates a layer that will protect the carabiner from corrosion, but since aluminum isn't corroding much, it doesn't matter if a carabiner is anodized or not. It can be useful if you are using a color coding system on your rack, or to make them easier to spot, but mostly its about being pretty.

The next thing is whether a carabiner is a locking carabiner or a non locking carabiner.

Locking carabiners

These have, you might have already guessed it, some kind of locking mechanism, that prevent their gate from opening unintentionally.


From left to right: Oval locker, D-shaped locker, asymmetric D-shaped locker and pear shaped locker (Munter hitch locker or HMS locker).

Ovals are an old form, and don't get used much anymore, just as D-shaped carabiners. Some manufacturers still make them, and they do still have their place, but stuff like carabiner brakes and advanced rigging is beyond this FAQ. If you already have some, you can of course use them (as long as they are still working, and are not too old). They aren't unsafe, its just that asymmetric D-shaped lockers are better in most situations (and being newer, they are also often lighter than old carabiners of the same strength). As mentioned, asymmetric D-shaped lockers are what is used for most purposes nowadays. They do come in many different forms, just as their non locking counterparts (look there for further information on the different shapes). Pear shaped lockers are mostly used for belaying and rappelling, either combined with a designated belay/ rappel device (stuff like the ATC, the reverso, and other tubes, or figure eights) or alone with a munter hitch. They are also nice as a big powerpoint locker in which you can clip a lot of other stuff due to its size. The carabiners pictured are all screw gate lockers. there are various other locking mechanisms, but since i like screw gates best, i don't have any other types. could someone add something on the different mechanisms?

Links:

Article about which lockers to chose, by british alpinist Andy Kirkpatrick.
More aimed at experienced and alpine climbers, but nevertheless some good "all purpose" informations.

Another article by the same guy as above, this time about the number of lockers needed. Again, it is a bit to specialized, but does offer some valuable information.

Non locking carabiners

These don't have a locking mechanism. Non locking carabiners are the bread and butter of any rack. They get used for quickdraws, for racking nuts and cams, and for dozens of other purposes. They are available in many different forms, almost all of them being a variation of the asymmetric D-shape. Oval and D-shaped ones do also exist, but the stuff said about them at locker does apply here too. Additionally due to their form Oval non lockers have a very low open gate strength, which is something that should be avoided (see: can carabiners still break?). Apart from the obvious things like shape and color, the most differences are in open gate strength, weight and price, as well as size.

At the moment ultralight carabiners seem to be all the rage, and it definitely is a nice thing to have to carry less, but the disadvantages of this are a higher price, and often reduced size and strength.
Here is a short overview about some of the carabiners i have, with weight in grams, open gate strength and price level. The petzl spirit is considered somewhat of a benchmark, so it is also pictured with the small carabiners, to have something to compare them too (apart from the scale).


Bigger carabiners, from left to right:
Petzl spirit: 9,5kN, 48g, expensive.
Kong ???: 7kN, 49g cheap.
Wild country Helium:10kN, 34g, expensive
Salewa SUB: 9kN, 34g, medium



Smaller carabiners, from left to right:
Petzl spirit, shown again for size.
Kong Helium: 7kN, 36g, medium
Black Diamond Neutrino: 8kN, 34g, medium
Black Diamond Oz: 8kN, 28g, expensive
Camp Nano (old model): 9kN, 28g, expensive


So which carabiners and how many should i get?

Which ones you should get depends. apart from open gate strength (see can carabiners still break), its a matter of what suits you best.

Some people don't like small carabiners, some don't like wiregates, some want keylocks and so on. Number wise you wont need many non locking carabiners, since non locking ones are mostly used in quickdraws. Two or three free ones should do it, to clip some random stuff, or for slings. Lockers are needed for the belay device and for securing yourself to the belay, so that makes at least two, one of them being a big pear shaped one. Having some spare lockers is always nice, but if you are carrying so many that you are getting weighted down by them, you are doing something wrong.

As on which carabiners to get my suggestion would be to get a big carabiner, with keylock, high open gate strength, that is light and has a good price. However such a carabiner doesn't exist.

As you can see in the list, you cant have everything. you can have a big and light and strong carabiner, but you cant have that for cheap. You can have the lightest carabiner that there is at the moment, but you cant have that carabiner being big and strong (with the new camp nano being even smaller). There are also many different big, strong and cheap carabiners, but they aren't light.

You have to ask your self whats the most important for you: Are you doing trad or alpine stuff with big racks and long routes? You might want to have a look at the weight and if you can use them with gloves. Are you doing sport climbing with preclipped draws? Weight isn't an issue here, so get strong and easy to clip carabiners. And so on ...

If you want specific information on a specific carabiner, you should look into the gear section of this site.
There you can find ratings and reviews about specific carabiners.
Also you can search the forums for it. Typing "manufaturer name carabiner name" into the search box, will often turn up with discussions that contain info about that carabiner. Another possibility would be to click on one of the big ads on this site, by the likes like rei, backcountrygear and whatever. Most of these big retailers have also the option that their customers rate and comment the stuff they buy there. And last but not least the manufacturers themselves do often some good information about the stuff they sell, including intended use, and at which kind of climbers the respective product is aimed.

Gate and nose variations

Another thing that exists in different variations are the gates and the noses of the carabiners.


Clockwise from the top:
Salewa SUB: strange outward bent wiregate, non hooded nose
Faders ???: bent solid gate
Lucky Metor: another bent solid gate
Kong ???: Bent solid keylock gate
Austrialpin easy magic: mildy bent solid gate, keylock variant
Stubai supreme rope: bent wiregate, hooded nose
Salewa SUB: straight solid gate
Stubai supreme top: straight wiregate, hooded nose
Black diamond Oz: straight wiregate, mildly hooded nose
Petzl Spirit: straight solid gate, keylock
Kong Helium: straight solid gate, keylock



left, from top:
Faders ???: Non keylock
Kong ???: Keylock
Black Diamond Neutrino: Hooded Nose
right, from top:
Austrialpin Easy Spezial: old school claw type nose
Salwa SUB: non hooded nose
Wild country Helium: Wirelock/ wiregate Keylock nose
Black Diamond Oz: Mildly hooded nose


As you can see, there are many variants. Solid gates are the "traditional way" carabiners are made. A variation of this is the keylock. Keylock noses have the advantage that they wont get easily caught at stuff (be it bolt hangers or slings), so it makes the carabiners easier to use. The bent gate variation is meant for the rope end of the quickdraw, since it makes clipping a bit easier. As you can see some of the gate have notches or grooves on them. this is meant to make them easier to operate. again it is a matter of personal taste if you need such notches, and if yes, which manufacturer suits you best.

Wiregates are are "new" invention. Its biggest advantages are reduced weight, and added safety against open gate loading (see can carabiners still break). The disadvantage was that they couldn't be made in a keylock variant, but this has been solved, with carabiners like the Wild Country Helium or the DMM Shield. Wiregates also Exist in a bent shape, but most manufacturers just use straight gates, since wiregates are mostly easy to clip, thanks to the protruded nose (which is not found on straight solid gates). Some wiregates have a hooded nose, helping to protect the carabiner from getting opened by getting rubbed across the rock.

Here is an article about wiregates by british alpinist Andy Kirkpatrick about wiregates. As you will see from the statements in it, it is a bit older. but that gives an interesting overview about how wiregates at first where only slowly accepted by the climbing community.

Unusual carabiners

And apart from all the above described standard forms of carabiners there is also a big number of strange, or non standard carabiners. The most well known one is surely the wiregate, which was deemed a stupid or at least very strange idea by many, but its advantages helped it to become a accepted type very quickly (see link above). Many others weren't so lucky, so there is a number of discontinued or niche products out there. Maybe some will catch on, but a lot wont.


Heres a small sample, from left to right:
DMM Revolver: carabiner with built in pulley. Useful on meandering pitches to reduce rope drag. But heavy and expensive, and can only be used on the rope side of a draw (not very multi purpose). The british site planetfear.com has a very enthusiastic review about it, but given the fact that it is a quite expensive and specialized piece of gear, it is not something one must get as a beginner.
Stubai locker: Unusual shape for its age, and a plastic sleeve as locking mechanism. Having only a little piece of plastic preventing your locker from opening isn't as confidence inspiring as a big piece of aluminum on conventional lockers.
Salewa ???: big plastic grips that are supposedly making clipping easier. the silver part at the draw side gets levered upwards when weighted, making it impossible for the gate to get opened. Heavy as hell, and way to expensive.

Some of the strange or special carabiners have their niches, but for a beginner normal carabiners should do it.

Links:

Article about the different carabiner types by the user shoo. A lot of good and detailed information about the various types and shapes of carabiners.


troutboy


Feb 5, 2009, 5:27 AM
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Re: [macblaze] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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macblaze wrote:
troutboy wrote:
OK, here's my impression as a scientist and profesional writer.

I once sent in a resume for a proofreader job with a typo in it. One should never cut corners when trying to impress people with your competence.

Clearly you are unaware of the UK version of the word. You know, like color and colour Wink

Good catch.
TS


Rudmin


Feb 11, 2010, 11:00 AM
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Re: [qwert] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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I think you are mixing up characteristics. Sometimes you seem to be talking about characteristics, but then sometimes you talk about things like shape under locking characteristics. You should list all unrelated characteristics separately. So you have something like this where you explain a bit of the pros and cons of each choice:

General Characteristics

size
weight
cost

Specific Characteristics

material:
steel
aluminum
other?

construction:
round bar
I-beam

shape:
oval
D
asymetric D
pear

gate:
wire gate
straight solid gate
bent solid gate
the new Petzl wire-solid hybrid

nose:
notched
shrouded
hooded
keylock

locking:
non-locking
screw lock
twist lock
ball lock
other?

strength:
(each entry is an attribute rather than a choice)
axial
open gate
cross load

If you go through that list and categorize a carabiner by each characteristic, you have pretty much described everything you might want to know about it

edited for format


(This post was edited by Rudmin on Feb 11, 2010, 11:01 AM)


bill413


Feb 13, 2010, 8:16 PM
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Re: [Rudmin] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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Qwert -

In discussing quickdraws and which biner is for the rope end vs the bolt end, you left out a configuration that I have seen. It is wiregate on one end and a bent-gate on the other. That configuration has led to several discussions with the people using them. Unsure (I'm of the opinion that bent-gate always goes on the rope end.)

Also, I wonder if a section on biner inspection is in order (inspection for nicks caused by bolts comes to mind), and maintenance.


harpo_the_climber


Mar 30, 2010, 7:13 AM
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Re: [bill413] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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Could someone comment on dyneema/spectra vs nylon for quickdraws? Is the only advantage that nylon is thicker and easier to grip? Also, most nylong QDs I have seen have the loop sewn together, making them stiffer, while the dyneema ones are sewn that way and are floppier. Does this make a difference in performance?


shoo


Mar 30, 2010, 7:20 AM
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Re: [harpo_the_climber] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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harpo_the_climber wrote:
Could someone comment on dyneema/spectra vs nylon for quickdraws? Is the only advantage that nylon is thicker and easier to grip? Also, most nylong QDs I have seen have the loop sewn together, making them stiffer, while the dyneema ones are sewn that way and are floppier. Does this make a difference in performance?

This is not the appropriate thread for this discussion. There are countless other threads discussing it. Please do a search.


ian1386


Jul 15, 2010, 5:30 PM
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Re: [qwert] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
One thing to keep in mind when using longer quickdraws is that every centimeter your quickdraw gets longer means 2 centimeters you fall further, should you fall on the quickdraw. When using a 30cm quickdraw instead of an 8cm one, this makes 2*22cm = 44cm of difference. This are nearly 20". This doesn't sound like much, but when falling into the first bolt, or above a ledge, these 44cm can be the difference between a normal harmless sport fall and a broken ankle! As mentioned, long quickdraws have their benefits, but use them with care.

I don't quite understand this part. As far as I can tell, quick draw length can affect your fall distance, but it's not as clear cut as "you'll fall further on a long draw". For example, if you have constant 8ft spaces between draws, as long as you use the same length draws the rope end biners will still always be 8 ft apart from each other. Sure, the rope end biner will be further from the bolt/pro, but it also means you can likely clip it sooner.

Maybe I'm missing something though? I am a noob...


qwert


Jul 18, 2010, 3:56 AM
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Re: [ian1386] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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ian1386 wrote:
qwert wrote:
One thing to keep in mind when using longer quickdraws is that every centimeter your quickdraw gets longer means 2 centimeters you fall further, should you fall on the quickdraw. When using a 30cm quickdraw instead of an 8cm one, this makes 2*22cm = 44cm of difference. This are nearly 20". This doesn't sound like much, but when falling into the first bolt, or above a ledge, these 44cm can be the difference between a normal harmless sport fall and a broken ankle! As mentioned, long quickdraws have their benefits, but use them with care.

I don't quite understand this part. As far as I can tell, quick draw length can affect your fall distance, but it's not as clear cut as "you'll fall further on a long draw". For example, if you have constant 8ft spaces between draws, as long as you use the same length draws the rope end biners will still always be 8 ft apart from each other. Sure, the rope end biner will be further from the bolt/pro, but it also means you can likely clip it sooner.

Maybe I'm missing something though? I am a noob...
If we are assuming that you are climbing a completely "featureless" wall, then yes, your assumption is somewhat correct. you would get an evenly spaced grid of carabiners, and your fall lengths would always be the same.

However in the "real world" the situation could look something like this crude sketch:
So there is a bolt somewhere over a ledge.
In both situations you are falling at the same point, when trying to top out.
with the short quickdraw you are 118 pixels above your lower carabiner, and thus you are going to fall 236 pixels (not taking rope stretch and rope running through your belay device into account), which leaves you hanging comfortably above the ledge.
with the long quickdraw you are 172 pixels above your lower carabiner, since your longer quickdraw is 54 pixels longer. So (again ignoring rope stretch and rope slippage) this time you will fall 344 pixels, which will cause you to deck on the ledge, without the rope catching you at all.

So how likely is such a situation?
As always: it depends.
If you use a 9cm long quickdraw instead of you normal 8cm ones the difference will most likely be neglible. however if you are going to use a fully extended trad draw you will have a difference of over 1m, so that might affect your "landing" a big way. It might even be so long that you are going to pass the ledge, and hang happily below it.

What i am trying to say is the following: there can be situation where a rather small difference in quickdraw length might make a big difference in the outcome of a fall.

but at the end its down to you to decide if you are in such a situation or not.

qwert


(This post was edited by qwert on Jul 18, 2010, 3:57 AM)
Attachments: shortvslong.jpg (58.4 KB)


bill413


Jul 19, 2010, 4:21 PM
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Re: [qwert] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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qwert wrote:
with the short quickdraw you are 118 pixels above your lower carabiner, and thus you are going to fall 236 pixels (not taking rope stretch and rope running through your belay device into account), which leaves you hanging comfortably above the ledge.
with the long quickdraw you are 172 pixels above your lower carabiner, since your longer quickdraw is 54 pixels longer. So (again ignoring rope stretch and rope slippage) this time you will fall 344 pixels, which will cause you to deck on the ledge, without the rope catching you at all.

So how likely is such a situation?
As always: it depends.
If you use a 9cm long quickdraw instead of you normal 8cm ones the difference will most likely be neglible. however if you are going to use a fully extended trad draw you will have a difference of over 1m, so that might affect your "landing" a big way. It might even be so long that you are going to pass the ledge, and hang happily below it.

What i am trying to say is the following: there can be situation where a rather small difference in quickdraw length might make a big difference in the outcome of a fall.

but at the end its down to you to decide if you are in such a situation or not.

qwert

I'm confused. Is the conversion
8cm/118pix or 9cm/172pix?

Do we need this in addition to cm & in?


More seriously, to rephrase qwert - It's the distance above the carabiner, not above the bolt, that determines the fall distance. So longer draws = longer falls if coming off the rock at the same point.


qwert


Jul 20, 2010, 9:07 AM
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Re: [bill413] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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bill413 wrote:
I'm confused. Is the conversion
8cm/118pix or 9cm/172pix?

Do we need this in addition to cm & in?
this was just for the example pic, because i am too lazy to figure out a usefull scale.
pixels are (as far as i know) not a measurement in the real world.
but now that i think of it, if you treat the pixels as 0.5 cm, and you should get somewhat realistic lengths.
the short quickdraw would be 20cm, and the long one about 46cm (short somewhat under, and long somewhat over 30 inches, if i remember the conversion correctly).

qwert


tkinslow


Apr 18, 2011, 6:16 PM
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Re: [sgauss] Carabiner and quickdraw FAQ *draft* [In reply to]
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sgauss wrote:
Maybe start by pointing out the gate of the carabiner vs. the spine.

Maybe even more basic, a quick explanation of why carabiners are used in climbing.

For a true beginner faq, it would be good to have a section on how biner strength is rated. Explain what a kilonewton is, and talk about axis, open and crossload ratings.
hes right man

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