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mvpdang


Aug 1, 2010, 12:20 AM
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Campfires?  (North_America: United_States: California: Bishop_and_Eastern_Sierra)
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Being all dry lately, are campfires still permitted in campsite in Bishop?


rangerrob


Aug 2, 2010, 4:59 PM
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Re: [mvpdang] Campfires? [In reply to]
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Ask yourself this one question. Why do you want to have a campfire? Do you need it to cook on? If so, you may want to invest in a campstove. They are way more efficient at cooking food. Do you need it for warmth? If so, you may want to invest in some warmer clothing. Why else do you need a campfire? For the social hanging out? If that's the case, ask yourself how environmentally friendly you want to be. If you can care less about the places you visit, and nothing exists except you, then go ahead and have a fire. if however, you desire to reduce your impact on the environments that you visit, then consider not having a campfire at all. We can deny it all we want, but our actions (including campfires) DO have an impact on our environment. Fire rings attract trash. Wood gathering strips the forest floor of litter needed to replenish nutrients. Cutting down stuff to burn strips regeneration and hampers new growth. Half charred logs do not readily ignite again, and also do not decompose...leaving charred logs for generations for everyone to look at.

Please consider why you want to have a campfire in the first place, and how much you care about the mountain and desert environments we all claim to love.

RR


olderic


Aug 2, 2010, 5:57 PM
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Re: [rangerrob] Campfires? [In reply to]
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rangerrob wrote:
Ask yourself this one question. Why do you want to have a campfire? Do you need it to cook on? If so, you may want to invest in a campstove. They are way more efficient at cooking food. Do you need it for warmth? If so, you may want to invest in some warmer clothing. Why else do you need a campfire? For the social hanging out? If that's the case, ask yourself how environmentally friendly you want to be. If you can care less about the places you visit, and nothing exists except you, then go ahead and have a fire. if however, you desire to reduce your impact on the environments that you visit, then consider not having a campfire at all. We can deny it all we want, but our actions (including campfires) DO have an impact on our environment. Fire rings attract trash. Wood gathering strips the forest floor of litter needed to replenish nutrients. Cutting down stuff to burn strips regeneration and hampers new growth. Half charred logs do not readily ignite again, and also do not decompose...leaving charred logs for generations for everyone to look at.

Please consider why you want to have a campfire in the first place, and how much you care about the mountain and desert environments we all claim to love.

RR
+1. Let me put it more crudely. They stink. I don't want to breath your second hand smoke,


dugl33


Aug 2, 2010, 7:05 PM
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Re: [mvpdang] Campfires? [In reply to]
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mvpdang wrote:
Being all dry lately, are campfires still permitted in campsite in Bishop?

You'll need a campfire permit (for primitive sites), and you'll need to check what is currently allowed. More developed pay sites usually don't require permits. Heading north on the main drag (hwy 395) the forest service visitor center is on the right hand side. They will know.


johnwesely


Aug 2, 2010, 7:15 PM
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Re: [olderic] Campfires? [In reply to]
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olderic wrote:
rangerrob wrote:
Ask yourself this one question. Why do you want to have a campfire? Do you need it to cook on? If so, you may want to invest in a campstove. They are way more efficient at cooking food. Do you need it for warmth? If so, you may want to invest in some warmer clothing. Why else do you need a campfire? For the social hanging out? If that's the case, ask yourself how environmentally friendly you want to be. If you can care less about the places you visit, and nothing exists except you, then go ahead and have a fire. if however, you desire to reduce your impact on the environments that you visit, then consider not having a campfire at all. We can deny it all we want, but our actions (including campfires) DO have an impact on our environment. Fire rings attract trash. Wood gathering strips the forest floor of litter needed to replenish nutrients. Cutting down stuff to burn strips regeneration and hampers new growth. Half charred logs do not readily ignite again, and also do not decompose...leaving charred logs for generations for everyone to look at.

Please consider why you want to have a campfire in the first place, and how much you care about the mountain and desert environments we all claim to love.

RR
+1. Let me put it more crudely. They stink. I don't want to breath your second hand smoke,

+2


johnwesely


Aug 2, 2010, 7:16 PM
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Re: [mvpdang] Campfires? [In reply to]
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mvpdang wrote:
Being all dry lately, are campfires still permitted in campsite in Bishop?

Do you have a guitar?


dugl33


Aug 2, 2010, 7:27 PM
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Re: [rangerrob] Campfires? [In reply to]
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R^3, while I respect your opinion that's a somewhat narrow view. While I frequently skip the campfire, yes it is nice for warmth, socializing, cooking, contemplation.

I think a person can be in tune with a particular area and let that guide them. In California we have wildfires that burn incredible amounts of fuel and run across countless acres. The magnitude makes the average campfire trivial in comparison. CDF and park service personnel frequently do controlled burns. Drive into Yosemite on 41 and you'll see piles of downed wood debris gathered into piles to be burned.

One can debate strategies of fire management and suppression but for some circumstances I can't see how it much matters. Perhaps fire rings attracting trash is unique to your area and frankly I've had no problem burning charred logs. Burned logs an eyesore for generations? Come on now.

My last campfire was in a local backcountry canyon where a massive winter debris flow pushed an incredible quantity of driftwood down the canyon. I was the only soul around, with a pile 6 feet tall by 40 feet long of ready made campfire material. I built a modest fire, pulled out a flask of courvoisier, and enjoyed a shocking quantity of stars.


rangerrob


Aug 2, 2010, 8:37 PM
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Re: [dugl33] Campfires? [In reply to]
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oh we could debate fire ecology and management endlessly if you wanted to. Comparing forest fires to campfires though.....they are two different things, and one only has a small bearing on the other. Fundamentally though, campfires are not part of a Leave No Trace strategy and ethic. Our goal should be minimum impact on the land. Let's face it, few people in this country, outdoor enthusiasts included, know how to build a minimum impact campfire. There are some around who do, but they are a very small percentage.

Wildfires are a natural part of overall ecosystem health, fire suppression is not. neither is 10 or 12 drunken climbers sitting around the same fire ring every weekend, compacting the soil, and spreading a large amount of ash into a small area. How many fire rings do you see that have no shards of glass around and in them? Why is it that most every popular camping area has banned fires outright, or restricted wood scavenging? Because that activity has a huge impact on a small area.

We all like to think of our campfires as happy places where we feel good and hang with our buddies. I know I do, that's normal. But just because it evokes a happy feel good emotion doesn't mean it isn't damaging. We always have to look at our actions and review them. Sometimes the things we WANT to do are not the things we SHOULD do.

RR


leapinlizard


Aug 2, 2010, 9:16 PM
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Re: [mvpdang] Campfires? [In reply to]
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While I can appreciate people who do not believe in campfires, I feel as if it should be a choice. I respect the fact that the world is changing and no longer are the days of having family time either around a dinner table or a campfire, but I, among many others still like to reminisce about the good ol' days when climbers, hunters, backpackers could gather around a hypnotizing fire and drink beer telling old stories and recalling the days events. I have been on plenty of LNT trips and plenty of trips that were not LNT. Knowing I will get a lot flack, I have to say, while LNT has its heart in the right place, it preaches ideals that are for people that can not think for themselves. Educated decisions are what I advocate, if the area will be permanently scarred then more weight needs to be placed on the decision to have a campfire, if not then who cares? For example, I once had a young upstart LNT preacher explain that I shouldn't have a campfire because it would scar the ground for many years and that nothing living would be able to grow there. What the lad failed to realize is that we were in a seasonal flood plane and that no matter what he had been told, that ground was not going to be scarred for long.


anthonymason


Aug 2, 2010, 9:27 PM
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Re: [rangerrob] Campfires? [In reply to]
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What a crock of shite, what percentage of you're gear is made with all natural ingredients?, I would guess not much.
Dude its a frigin' campfire.
Whether if its in a developed campground or in the back country a properly managed campfire is nice.
Fire is a natural part of being human, of course being a drunken retard around a fire albeit being funny can cause serious harm.But this was a legit question.
However you decided to tear him a new one, over a campfire REALLY!


cornstateclimber


Aug 2, 2010, 10:23 PM
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Re: [anthonymason] Campfires? [In reply to]
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all good points. but fires are part of camping! if your camping in a fire restricted area, then no. but if your camping in a developed site with a fire ring then why the hell not! if smokey the bear says to dry to burn then no, but based on a decision thast it ecologically wrong? cmon! thats why fire plans are in effect all across our nation! i camp everywhere, and follow all the regulatiopns! and hell yes,. if a fire is allowed then im having a fire. and i dont cut down trees to burn, only gather wood from a spread out area as to confine my collections to one small 25' circle around my camp. ive been to campgrounds where actually finding downed wood is impossible, and lo and behold they sell the nicely cut and split loggs just so i can have a fire! so ask yourself, would i enjoy a fire if its permitted? yes, and if my smoke bothers someone who happens to be camping right next to me, well so be it! they came to the place where fires are permitted! dont go to a tobacco store and complain about the smell! nor open a porn mag and complain about the content!


suprasoup


Aug 2, 2010, 11:14 PM
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Re: [dugl33] Campfires? [In reply to]
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dugl33 wrote:
Perhaps fire rings attracting trash is unique to your area


Unfortunately it's not limited to any one location or area.




leapinlizard


Aug 3, 2010, 8:19 PM
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Re: [suprasoup] Campfires? [In reply to]
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Well, on the bright side, it appears they kept all the trash in the fire ring instead of everywhere else. j/k

suprasoup wrote:
dugl33 wrote:
Perhaps fire rings attracting trash is unique to your area


Unfortunately it's not limited to any one location or area.

[image]http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs126.snc4/36644_432905678523_726203523_5759395_304599_n.jpg[/image]


johnwesely


Aug 3, 2010, 8:36 PM
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Re: [anthonymason] Campfires? [In reply to]
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anthonymason wrote:
What a crock of shite, what percentage of you're gear is made with all natural ingredients?, I would guess not much.

Strawman much?


rangerrob


Aug 4, 2010, 5:01 AM
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Re: [johnwesely] Campfires? [In reply to]
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Don't get me wrong, I love a campfire as much as the next person, and if I'm at a private campground, I am having a fire if I can. What I am talking about is back country, or primitive camping on public lands. And while we all yearn for the days of yore...that excuse fails miserably in my opinion. I yearn for the days of yore when I could drive a 66 Malibu and open up that 4 barrel carbuerator and drive like hell. Fortunately we have learned that driving a car that get 8 or 9 miles to the gallon slowly kills the planet, so I changed my behavior.

all of our actions have consequences, no matter how small and innocent they may appear. What I am saying is, consider the reasons why you want a campfire. If it's not necessary, then maybe you can make that small decision...for yourself, and for the rest of us.

Think for yourself..absolutely. Don't follow some rigid dogma because some dirty hippy trustafarian Outward Bound instructor told you to. Think about your actions and the consequences they have.


hyhuu


Aug 4, 2010, 5:33 AM
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Re: [rangerrob] Campfires? [In reply to]
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rangerrob wrote:
all of our actions have consequences, no matter how small and innocent they may appear. What I am saying is, consider the reasons why you want a campfire. If it's not necessary, then maybe you can make that small decision...for yourself, and for the rest of us.

Not that I advocate camp fire but by the same logic, camping or climbing is definitely NOT necessary in modern day.


Partner j_ung


Aug 4, 2010, 5:57 AM
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Re: [rangerrob] Campfires? [In reply to]
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rangerrob wrote:
Fundamentally though, campfires are not part of a Leave No Trace strategy and ethic.

From lnt.org:

In reply to:
Minimize Campfire Impacts

* Campfires can cause lasting impacts to the backcountry. Use a lightweight stove for cooking and enjoy a candle lantern for light.
* Where fires are permitted, use established fire rings, fire pans, or mound fires.
* Keep fires small. Only use sticks from the ground that can be broken by hand.
* Burn all wood and coals to ash, put out campfires completely, then scatter cool ashes.

Some of you are talking about backcountry campfires. Some of you are talking about established camp sites. According to the recognized authority on LNT, there doesn't appear to be any actual disagreement.


rangerrob


Aug 5, 2010, 6:57 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Campfires? [In reply to]
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You can be in the backcountry and still be camping in a heavily impacted area. Frequently used campsites in the backcountry suffer from the same problems that overused sites in the front country do. namely, sever soil compaction, change of soil pH due to campfire ash, a complete stripping of the forest floor of dead and down and regrowth, and unsightly fire rings.

Very few people indeed actually take the time to make a mound fire, or bring a fire pan with them. Also, there is no functional need to build a fire ring. It will not stop the spread of a campfire through the organic duff. It is purely aesthetic. They are holdovers from the days of cowboys and old boy scout ethics


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