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dugl33


Aug 9, 2010, 10:01 AM
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Anchor Analysis: is this adequate?
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I came across this pic on Mountain Project and thought it was curious enough to post. (Yosemite Valley, "Firefingers" 5.11b)

Summary: Two bolt anchor. Bolts and anchor hardware look modern-beefy-bomber. One bolt is around 2 feet above the other. Anchor is tied with a single tied nylon runner which appears to be girth hitched to the lower bolts quicklink and redirected through a wiregate biner clipped to the top bolt hanger. The belayer is tied off with a clove hitch to a locker and the lead rope is clipped through a biner-on-biner on the top bolt. The new leader has clipped the first lead bolt with a quickdraw and the route is heading up and left.

What do you think?



****************
http://www.mountainproject.com/...118_large_95b99f.jpg
Attachments: firefingers11b.jpg (129 KB)


edge


Aug 9, 2010, 10:06 AM
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Re: [dugl33] Anchor Analysis: is this adequate? [In reply to]
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Umm, yeah. I would have handled that scenario differently.


jakedatc


Aug 9, 2010, 10:13 AM
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when trad climbers encounter bolts and get confused? Laugh


taydude


Aug 9, 2010, 10:18 AM
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depending on gear I would have just made a typical anchor with two legs out of cordalette or webbing. Or if we were swapping leads I probably would have just tied cloved the rope to a locker on each bolt. Then again I'm a noob and likely to kill myself.


bill413


Aug 9, 2010, 10:52 AM
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jakedatc wrote:
when trad climbers encounter bolts and get confused? Laugh

That's it.
Don't know why he didn't just thread the chain with the wire from a big stopper & clip that - then he'd be on familiar territory.



I'm not wild about the single piece of webbing; no redundancy there.

However, once he's clipped that next bolt, even if the anchor lets go, they'll both be hanging from that.


billcoe_


Aug 9, 2010, 11:01 AM
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He could have just as easily clipped the chain, cloved that biner, and ran the rope up to the next bolt and cloved that biner.

I can't say why some people do the things they do. One time I was doing Regular NW face of Half dome with my AMGA certified partner, and he set up the rope similar so that the high piece had the rope going up to it instead of the reverse -just like this essentially, with the backup pieces below. At that point we'd been climbing together for probably over 20 years with no similar instances, guy was always near perfect. Furthermore, he'd fiddled with the anchor a longer than normal time as well.

He had no explanation to offer when I spit out my exasperation upon seeing that abortion of an anchor.....so we let it be and moved on.

Shit happens.


billcoe_


Aug 9, 2010, 11:03 AM
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Oh yeah, BTW: it's adequate and will work, but as this probably cost more time than the 2 cloves in line - totally stupid and incorrect.

Shit happens.


styndall


Aug 9, 2010, 11:13 AM
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That anchor is weird as hell.


majid_sabet


Aug 9, 2010, 11:13 AM
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never leave all of your eggs in one basket

if you got the gear then set a typical anchor instead of "single tied nylon runner which appears to be girth hitched"


welle


Aug 9, 2010, 12:06 PM
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Isn't it called "American Death Triangle"?


bill413


Aug 9, 2010, 12:17 PM
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welle wrote:
Isn't it called "American Death Triangle"?

No.


styndall


Aug 9, 2010, 12:18 PM
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welle wrote:
Isn't it called "American Death Triangle"?

Nope. I'm pretty sure the ADT is a single sling between two (mostly-)parallel bolts.


marc801


Aug 9, 2010, 12:23 PM
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styndall wrote:
welle wrote:
Isn't it called "American Death Triangle"?

Nope. I'm pretty sure the ADT is a single sling between two (mostly-)parallel bolts.
ADT on the left. Correct rigging on the right.




welle


Aug 9, 2010, 12:25 PM
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styndall wrote:
welle wrote:
Isn't it called "American Death Triangle"?

Nope. I'm pretty sure the ADT is a single sling between two (mostly-)parallel bolts.

Can't tell from the angle of the photo, but does it have to be parallel points? It has two main attributes of the ADT - reliance on a single sling and extension of of the anchor (if one point fails, the forces on the remaining point will be tremendous).


caughtinside


Aug 9, 2010, 12:33 PM
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welle wrote:
styndall wrote:
welle wrote:
Isn't it called "American Death Triangle"?

Nope. I'm pretty sure the ADT is a single sling between two (mostly-)parallel bolts.

Can't tell from the angle of the photo, but does it have to be parallel points? It has two main attributes of the ADT - reliance on a single sling and extension of of the anchor (if one point fails, the forces on the remaining point will be tremendous).

That isnt'a triangle. It's a V.

The issue with the ADT is that it increases forces on the bolts. Here, there is no triangle. There is no force amplification. There's also no equalization. It's basically a belay off one bolt with the second bolt as a backup. There's two 'legs' on that sling, but one of them is the attachment to the photographer, so that's not an equalization leg.

It's hard to say why it's set up that way, perhaps there is a belay stance? But then the bolt position wouldn't make sense. I'd probably try to sling the two bolts together and then hang on the lower one, sort of ghetto equalized.


redlude97


Aug 9, 2010, 12:56 PM
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caughtinside wrote:
welle wrote:
styndall wrote:
welle wrote:
Isn't it called "American Death Triangle"?

Nope. I'm pretty sure the ADT is a single sling between two (mostly-)parallel bolts.

Can't tell from the angle of the photo, but does it have to be parallel points? It has two main attributes of the ADT - reliance on a single sling and extension of of the anchor (if one point fails, the forces on the remaining point will be tremendous).

That isnt'a triangle. It's a V.

The issue with the ADT is that it increases forces on the bolts. Here, there is no triangle. There is no force amplification. There's also no equalization. It's basically a belay off one bolt with the second bolt as a backup. There's two 'legs' on that sling, but one of them is the attachment to the photographer, so that's not an equalization leg.

It's hard to say why it's set up that way, perhaps there is a belay stance? But then the bolt position wouldn't make sense. I'd probably try to sling the two bolts together and then hang on the lower one, sort of ghetto equalized.
I dunno, it kinda looks like a triangle to me



(This post was edited by redlude97 on Aug 9, 2010, 12:57 PM)
Attachments: ADT.JPG (7.39 KB)


caughtinside


Aug 9, 2010, 1:08 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
welle wrote:
styndall wrote:
welle wrote:
Isn't it called "American Death Triangle"?

Nope. I'm pretty sure the ADT is a single sling between two (mostly-)parallel bolts.

Can't tell from the angle of the photo, but does it have to be parallel points? It has two main attributes of the ADT - reliance on a single sling and extension of of the anchor (if one point fails, the forces on the remaining point will be tremendous).

That isnt'a triangle. It's a V.

The issue with the ADT is that it increases forces on the bolts. Here, there is no triangle. There is no force amplification. There's also no equalization. It's basically a belay off one bolt with the second bolt as a backup. There's two 'legs' on that sling, but one of them is the attachment to the photographer, so that's not an equalization leg.

It's hard to say why it's set up that way, perhaps there is a belay stance? But then the bolt position wouldn't make sense. I'd probably try to sling the two bolts together and then hang on the lower one, sort of ghetto equalized.
I dunno, it kinda looks like a triangle to me

I stand corrected. I took another look and it likely is a triangle. I didn't realize that runner went from the lower bolt to the locker with the clove. hard to see.


jrathfon


Aug 9, 2010, 1:08 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
welle wrote:
styndall wrote:
welle wrote:
Isn't it called "American Death Triangle"?

Nope. I'm pretty sure the ADT is a single sling between two (mostly-)parallel bolts.

Can't tell from the angle of the photo, but does it have to be parallel points? It has two main attributes of the ADT - reliance on a single sling and extension of of the anchor (if one point fails, the forces on the remaining point will be tremendous).

That isnt'a triangle. It's a V.

The issue with the ADT is that it increases forces on the bolts. Here, there is no triangle. There is no force amplification. There's also no equalization. It's basically a belay off one bolt with the second bolt as a backup. There's two 'legs' on that sling, but one of them is the attachment to the photographer, so that's not an equalization leg.

It's hard to say why it's set up that way, perhaps there is a belay stance? But then the bolt position wouldn't make sense. I'd probably try to sling the two bolts together and then hang on the lower one, sort of ghetto equalized.
I dunno, it kinda looks like a triangle to me
[image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=5176;[/image]

redlude's got the setup correct. but because these anchors are more vertical in nature forces aren't going to amplify as drastically as in the ADT.

i just thought the quote "modern gear" was quite funny... with the rigid friend hanging from his waist.


milesenoell


Aug 9, 2010, 1:20 PM
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redlude97 wrote:
I dunno, it kinda looks like a triangle to me

I think you're right about it being a triangle, but it's still a weird ass triangle. If I have it right, the entire load is on the top bolt which is then slightly amplified by the downward and sideways pull from the girth hitched second bolt. So the first bolt takes more than the full load on the rope, and if it fails the lower bolt goes from being pulled up and over to shock-loading in a downward direction. Plus all this happens on a single girth-hitched runner. Dandy. It'd be even better if it were girth hitched directly to the hanger.


(This post was edited by milesenoell on Aug 9, 2010, 1:23 PM)


majid_sabet


Aug 9, 2010, 1:35 PM
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marc801 wrote:
styndall wrote:
welle wrote:
Isn't it called "American Death Triangle"?

Nope. I'm pretty sure the ADT is a single sling between two (mostly-)parallel bolts.
ADT on the left. Correct rigging on the right.

[image]http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/Trad.224-1.gif[/image]

both wrong

never tie webbing directly on hangers


marc801


Aug 9, 2010, 2:03 PM
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majid_sabet wrote:
both wrong

never tie webbing directly on hangers
I thought by now you'd have learned...
it depends - on the hangers, the webbing, and the situation (eg: rap vs belay anchor, temporary or semi-permanent, etc.).

If I'm doing a dozen raps off of GPA and the bolt anchors don't have chains or quick links (many don't), you can be damned sure me or any other climber is not leaving a pair of biners at each station, nor are we carrying twenty or more quick links. We're tying or girth hitching webbing to the hangers, as has been done for the last half century.


marc801


Aug 9, 2010, 2:08 PM
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caughtinside wrote:
I stand corrected. I took another look and it likely is a triangle. I didn't realize that runner went from the lower bolt to the locker with the clove. hard to see.
Just because it has a triangular component doesn't necessarily mean it's an ADT. As pointed out earlier, the key aspect of the ADT is the force multiplication and, secondarily, the lack of redundancy if constructed of a single piece of webbing.


Partner j_ung


Aug 9, 2010, 3:35 PM
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marc801 wrote:
caughtinside wrote:
I stand corrected. I took another look and it likely is a triangle. I didn't realize that runner went from the lower bolt to the locker with the clove. hard to see.

Just because it has a triangular component doesn't necessarily mean it's an ADT. As pointed out earlier, the key aspect of the ADT is the force multiplication and, secondarily, the lack of redundancy if constructed of a single piece of webbing.

Which is exactly what I see in the picture. Plus teeny little nubs for tails.

I assume these guys made it out alive, but if I climbed up to find that's what my partner built, I'd slap him in the back of the head and re-rig it before leading on (and it would take all of 30 seconds). Granted it's a slab and the leader clipped the high bolt, so bombing onto the anchor isn't likely to happen, but let's say it's a different situation. Factor 2 one of those and the safety of the entire team is not a foregone conclusion. If the supertape is old and perma-tied into a sling, it's like showing up an hour late and giftless for your date with death. Maybe death let's you kiss her, or maybe she's not that easy. Who can say?


marc801


Aug 9, 2010, 3:48 PM
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j_ung wrote:
I assume these guys made it out alive, but if I climbed up to find that's what my partner built, I'd slap him in the back of the head and re-rig it before leading on (and it would take all of 30 seconds). Granted it's a slab and the leader clipped the high bolt, so bombing onto the anchor isn't likely to happen, but let's say it's a different situation. Factor 2 one of those and the safety of the entire team is not a foregone conclusion.
Even a slab/friction climb can have unexpected forces. There's a route on GPA posthumously named Anchors Away....


Partner j_ung


Aug 9, 2010, 3:54 PM
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marc801 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
I assume these guys made it out alive, but if I climbed up to find that's what my partner built, I'd slap him in the back of the head and re-rig it before leading on (and it would take all of 30 seconds). Granted it's a slab and the leader clipped the high bolt, so bombing onto the anchor isn't likely to happen, but let's say it's a different situation. Factor 2 one of those and the safety of the entire team is not a foregone conclusion.

Even a slab/friction climb can have unexpected forces. There's a route on GPA posthumously named Anchors Away....

Good point... good point.

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