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Poll: Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner
Find a new placement, even if it is not as good 5 / 12%
Girth hitch the cable with a sling 0 / 0%
Use doubled sling through the cable 10 / 24%
Use a bowline or other knot to sling the cable - anything but girth hitch 0 / 0%
Dont clip the wire - sling it like a chockstone or feed-through 3 / 7%
STFU noob, ur gunna die 23 / 56%
41 total votes
 

rsd212


Aug 17, 2010, 10:19 AM
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Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner
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I've gotten conflicting reports from various people, and though I've been through Freedom of the Hills and both Leubben and Long's anchor books I still want some ideas on this: what do you do when you have a great nut placement in a horizontal (without other clear options for placement), but the length of the wire cable puts the carabiner right on the edge of the rock? At first I thought I would just girth hitch the wire, but the cable-on-nylon feels wrong. Advice on the subject varies from "might hold" to "it will instantly fail":

http://www.paci.com.au/...ched_slings_2002.pdf
http://www.tradgirl.com/..._3.htm#girth_hitches

Doubling it through seems to be a bit better, but still a big reduction in strength, and gives you half the length to work with. What about a bowline or another knot? Should you cinch tight to the cable, or leave some play when using other knots?

Whats the verdict on slinging the nut like it were a chockstone? You'd need a longer sling to make it clear the edge, but it seems reasonable. I could, however, see the sling getting wedged between the rock and the nut, which could mean some fun for your second (and likely a trashed sling).


gmggg


Aug 17, 2010, 10:28 AM
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Re: [rsd212] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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rsd212 wrote:
I've gotten conflicting reports from various people, and though I've been through Freedom of the Hills and both Leubben and Long's anchor books I still want some ideas on this: what do you do when you have a great nut placement in a horizontal (without other clear options for placement), but the length of the wire cable puts the carabiner right on the edge of the rock? At first I thought I would just girth hitch the wire, but the cable-on-nylon feels wrong. Advice on the subject varies from "might hold" to "it will instantly fail":

http://www.paci.com.au/...ched_slings_2002.pdf
http://www.tradgirl.com/..._3.htm#girth_hitches

Doubling it through seems to be a bit better, but still a big reduction in strength, and gives you half the length to work with. What about a bowline or another knot? Should you cinch tight to the cable, or leave some play when using other knots?

Whats the verdict on slinging the nut like it were a chockstone? You'd need a longer sling to make it clear the edge, but it seems reasonable. I could, however, see the sling getting wedged between the rock and the nut, which could mean some fun for your second (and likely a trashed sling).

You could use two nuts, pass the heads of each through the other's loop. This is in essence girth hitching the nuts together. Just clip the lower wire as normal.(I believe there is some similar configuration in FOTH even)

Or, you could find a better placement. Or maybe a different piece? A slung hex with longer cord? What size nut?


kennoyce


Aug 17, 2010, 10:39 AM
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Re: [rsd212] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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I chose "STFU Noob You're gonna die" because I don't think any of your options are any good. I would clip an edge loaded biner before I would try attaching any kind of soft good directly to the wire with any type of knot/hitch. I don't think that slinging the head of the nut is a great idea because the sling could come off the nut and pull out if the nut isn't set extremely well.

The correct answer has already been mentioned, extend the nut with another nut.


rockhoss


Aug 17, 2010, 10:45 AM
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Re: [rsd212] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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Use the wire from another nut to bring the biner out past the edge. There is a picture of this method somewhere in FOTH. Slinging wire with webbing is dangerous...


gmggg


Aug 17, 2010, 10:47 AM
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Re: [kennoyce] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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kennoyce wrote:
I chose "STFU Noob You're gonna die" because I don't think any of your options are any good. I would clip an edge loaded biner before I would try attaching any kind of soft good directly to the wire with any type of knot/hitch. I don't think that slinging the head of the nut is a great idea because the sling could come off the nut and pull out if the nut isn't set extremely well.

The correct answer has already been mentioned, extend the nut with another nut.

I forgot to mention the first paragraph above in my initial response, please take note.


milesenoell


Aug 17, 2010, 11:02 AM
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Re: [gmggg] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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gmggg wrote:
rsd212 wrote:
I've gotten conflicting reports from various people, and though I've been through Freedom of the Hills and both Leubben and Long's anchor books I still want some ideas on this: what do you do when you have a great nut placement in a horizontal (without other clear options for placement), but the length of the wire cable puts the carabiner right on the edge of the rock? At first I thought I would just girth hitch the wire, but the cable-on-nylon feels wrong. Advice on the subject varies from "might hold" to "it will instantly fail":

http://www.paci.com.au/...ched_slings_2002.pdf
http://www.tradgirl.com/..._3.htm#girth_hitches

Doubling it through seems to be a bit better, but still a big reduction in strength, and gives you half the length to work with. What about a bowline or another knot? Should you cinch tight to the cable, or leave some play when using other knots?

Whats the verdict on slinging the nut like it were a chockstone? You'd need a longer sling to make it clear the edge, but it seems reasonable. I could, however, see the sling getting wedged between the rock and the nut, which could mean some fun for your second (and likely a trashed sling).

You could use two nuts, pass the heads of each through the other's loop. This is in essence girth hitching the nuts together. Just clip the lower wire as normal.(I believe there is some similar configuration in FOTH even)

Or, you could find a better placement. Or maybe a different piece? A slung hex with longer cord? What size nut?

So, you are suggesting girth hitching the cables of the nuts together? Or am I not understanding this?

I'd have to think that would trash your cables the fast way. I guess it just gives you a good incentive to not fall or weight that placement.

Can you get nuts reslung on new cable? I don't know if I'd ever feel good about a non-factory swage, though.


gmggg


Aug 17, 2010, 11:08 AM
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Re: [milesenoell] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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milesenoell wrote:
So, you are suggesting girth hitching the cables of the nuts together? Or am I not understanding this?

Yes.


milesenoell wrote:
I'd have to think that would trash your cables the fast way. I guess it just gives you a good incentive to not fall or weight that placement.

Perhaps depending on the likelihood and severity of the fall.


milesenoell wrote:
Can you get nuts reslung on new cable? I don't know if I'd ever feel good about a non-factory swage, though.

Why not?


rsd212


Aug 17, 2010, 11:48 AM
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Re: [gmggg] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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gmggg wrote:
You could use two nuts, pass the heads of each through the other's loop. This is in essence girth hitching the nuts together. Just clip the lower wire as normal.(I believe there is some similar configuration in FOTH even)

Guess I need to re-read FOTH...also, any testing for cable-on-cable loading? Intuitively seems better than cable on nylon though.

kennoyce wrote:
I would clip an edge loaded biner before I would try attaching any kind of soft good directly to the wire with any type of knot/hitch.

Seems like bad juju to me. Not too many tests of edge-loading. Youtube videos I found put it down around the same strength as girth-hitching with a sling, but seems like it would vary more, and edge loading on the gate may reduce the strength even more.

milesenoell wrote:
Can you get nuts reslung on new cable? I don't know if I'd ever feel good about a non-factory swage, though.
Can you resling a nut on new cable for less than $8 (cost of a new nut)?


majid_sabet


Aug 17, 2010, 11:51 AM
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Re: [rsd212] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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listen man

send your nut to lab and let some new dude with degree to check it in the horizontal crack for us

either way

urrganaaa die


(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Aug 17, 2010, 11:51 AM)


Partner climboard


Aug 17, 2010, 12:01 PM
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Re: [rsd212] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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+1 for extending it with another nut.

Better yet, replace it with a Tricam and you have even more options.


kennoyce


Aug 17, 2010, 12:04 PM
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Re: [rsd212] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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rsd212 wrote:
Guess I need to re-read FOTH...also, any testing for cable-on-cable loading? Intuitively seems better than cable on nylon though.

Haven't seen any testing on it, but there is no reason the cable would be weakened considerably (I'd guess not more than maybe 20%).

rsd212 wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
I would clip an edge loaded biner before I would try attaching any kind of soft good directly to the wire with any type of knot/hitch.

Seems like bad juju to me. Not too many tests of edge-loading. Youtube videos I found put it down around the same strength as girth-hitching with a sling, but seems like it would vary more, and edge loading on the gate may reduce the strength even more.

Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I'm certainly not advocating using an edge loaded biner. I'm only saying that if my only two options were to use an edge loaded biner or to girth hitch the wire, I wouldn't take the time to girth hitch the wire. I wouldn't want to fall on either though.

rsd212 wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
Can you get nuts reslung on new cable? I don't know if I'd ever feel good about a non-factory swage, though.

Can you resling a nut on new cable for less than $8 (cost of a new nut)?

Yes, if you have the tools, it's less than a dollar.


gmggg


Aug 17, 2010, 12:06 PM
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Re: [rsd212] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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rsd212 wrote:
gmggg wrote:
You could use two nuts, pass the heads of each through the other's loop. This is in essence girth hitching the nuts together. Just clip the lower wire as normal.(I believe there is some similar configuration in FOTH even)

Guess I need to re-read FOTH...also, any testing for cable-on-cable loading? Intuitively seems better than cable on nylon though.

kennoyce wrote:
I would clip an edge loaded biner before I would try attaching any kind of soft good directly to the wire with any type of knot/hitch.

Seems like bad juju to me. Not too many tests of edge-loading. Youtube videos I found put it down around the same strength as girth-hitching with a sling, but seems like it would vary more, and edge loading on the gate may reduce the strength even more.

milesenoell wrote:
Can you get nuts reslung on new cable? I don't know if I'd ever feel good about a non-factory swage, though.
Can you resling a nut on new cable for less than $8 (cost of a new nut)?

I'm not sure if anyone's ever tested extended nuts, and I only vaguely recall anything like this in FOTH so it may well not be there. It is a pretty standard practice though.

I'd have to echo the edge load before nylon through wire sentiment as well. Edge loading is a pretty nebulous term so it would be entirely situational.

I pointed out in my reply that there may be a better placement or a better piece for the job. If, however, you started up a route without that secret knowledge and found yourself in a similar situation to the OP for some reason the extended nut doesn't seem so bad.

Oh, and you could also run it out.


milesenoell


Aug 17, 2010, 12:09 PM
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Re: [gmggg] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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gmggg wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
So, you are suggesting girth hitching the cables of the nuts together? Or am I not understanding this?

Yes.


milesenoell wrote:
I'd have to think that would trash your cables the fast way. I guess it just gives you a good incentive to not fall or weight that placement.

Perhaps depending on the likelihood and severity of the fall.


milesenoell wrote:
Can you get nuts reslung on new cable? I don't know if I'd ever feel good about a non-factory swage, though.

Why not?

I've used a compression swage tool and swaged cables before (for removing stakes driven into the ground) and the results are super variable. I've always assumed the factory had worked out the variability or pull tested them or something.

But as was mentioned, getting them re-swaged, and likely shipped, and going without in the meantime is not likely to be worth it compared to simple replacement.


milesenoell


Aug 17, 2010, 12:24 PM
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Re: [kennoyce] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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kennoyce wrote:
rsd212 wrote:
Guess I need to re-read FOTH...also, any testing for cable-on-cable loading? Intuitively seems better than cable on nylon though.

Haven't seen any testing on it, but there is no reason the cable would be weakened considerably (I'd guess not more than maybe 20%).

This is super armchair, but if Spectra gets about 30% strength loss from the sharp angles of girth-hitching (http://www.rockclimbing.com/...h%20spectra;#1473155), I'd think cable would be less flexible and should lose more.

rsd212 wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
I would clip an edge loaded biner before I would try attaching any kind of soft good directly to the wire with any type of knot/hitch.

Seems like bad juju to me. Not too many tests of edge-loading. Youtube videos I found put it down around the same strength as girth-hitching with a sling, but seems like it would vary more, and edge loading on the gate may reduce the strength even more.

In reply to:
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I'm certainly not advocating using an edge loaded biner. I'm only saying that if my only two options were to use an edge loaded biner or to girth hitch the wire, I wouldn't take the time to girth hitch the wire. I wouldn't want to fall on either though.

So you would just leave it?

rsd212 wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
Can you get nuts reslung on new cable? I don't know if I'd ever feel good about a non-factory swage, though.

Can you resling a nut on new cable for less than $8 (cost of a new nut)?

In reply to:
Yes, if you have the tools, it's less than a dollar.

Yeah, got (access to) the tools, but no way am I falling on one of my own swages. Most of them hold...

Edit: fixed cheesetit


(This post was edited by milesenoell on Aug 17, 2010, 12:25 PM)


gmggg


Aug 17, 2010, 12:25 PM
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Re: [milesenoell] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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milesenoell wrote:
gmggg wrote:
milesenoell wrote:
So, you are suggesting girth hitching the cables of the nuts together? Or am I not understanding this?

Yes.


milesenoell wrote:
I'd have to think that would trash your cables the fast way. I guess it just gives you a good incentive to not fall or weight that placement.

Perhaps depending on the likelihood and severity of the fall.


milesenoell wrote:
Can you get nuts reslung on new cable? I don't know if I'd ever feel good about a non-factory swage, though.

Why not?

I've used a compression swage tool and swaged cables before (for removing stakes driven into the ground) and the results are super variable. I've always assumed the factory had worked out the variability or pull tested them or something.

But as was mentioned, getting them re-swaged, and likely shipped, and going without in the meantime is not likely to be worth it compared to simple replacement.

Then you were swaging incorrectly. No offenseTongue

It's a pretty simple (and strong) process, but like anything you have to do it right, and know enough to know when you did it right or wrong.


malcolm777b


Aug 17, 2010, 12:27 PM
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Double an old-style nylon sling and pass it through the loop of the nut. Clip both strands (make it a locker if it makes you more comfortable). Bomber.


milesenoell


Aug 17, 2010, 12:43 PM
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I have a hard time imagining what it was that I would have done wrong. The gear belongs to a friend of mine who's an engineer, and he was of the opinion that the swages on climbing gear were done with a hydraulic press rather than the bolt-cutter style crimper we were using. He also thought that contamination of the cable with some kind of lubricant could be a factor. We couldn't see anything different about the ones that failed (3 out of 30-ish).


gmggg


Aug 17, 2010, 12:43 PM
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malcolm777b wrote:
Double an old-style nylon sling and pass it through the loop of the nut. Clip both strands (make it a locker if it makes you more comfortable). Bomber.

for some percentage of the time in some percentage of situations that will work. I surely wouldn't call it bomber though.

And what's the locker for?


kennoyce


Aug 17, 2010, 12:45 PM
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milesenoell wrote:
This is super armchair, but if Spectra gets about 30% strength loss from the sharp angles of girth-hitching (http://www.rockclimbing.com/...h%20spectra;#1473155), I'd think cable would be less flexible and should lose more.

As mentioned, this is also super armchair, but I would tend to think the exact oposite of you in that being less flexible, the cable would maintain more of it's strength. Spectra (or nyon for that matter) girth hitches tend to burn and cut their way through the webbing which wouldn't happen with a cable.

milesenoell wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
Sorry if I wasn't clear enough, I'm certainly not advocating using an edge loaded biner. I'm only saying that if my only two options were to use an edge loaded biner or to girth hitch the wire, I wouldn't take the time to girth hitch the wire. I wouldn't want to fall on either though.

So you would just leave it?

I'd clip the sucker and try my hardest to use it for mental pro only.Wink

milesenoell wrote:
Yeah, got (access to) the tools, but no way am I falling on one of my own swages. Most of them hold...

I don't know what you're doing wrong, but a properly done swage is plenty strong. I along with others have fallen onto swages I've personally done.


johnwesely


Aug 17, 2010, 12:51 PM
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Has no one else noticed the humor in the title?


gmggg


Aug 17, 2010, 12:51 PM
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milesenoell wrote:
I have a hard time imagining what it was that I would have done wrong. The gear belongs to a friend of mine who's an engineer, and he was of the opinion that the swages on climbing gear were done with a hydraulic press rather than the bolt-cutter style crimper we were using. He also thought that contamination of the cable with some kind of lubricant could be a factor. We couldn't see anything different about the ones that failed (3 out of 30-ish).

I really meant no offense. If you're uncomfortable with the idea don't do it. I was just suggesting that you could learn how if you wanted. It certainly isn't necessary for climbing though.


gmggg


Aug 17, 2010, 12:54 PM
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johnwesely wrote:
Has no one else noticed the humor in the title?

Don't blow the signal to noise man! We're supposed to be humorless now.


johnwesely


Aug 17, 2010, 12:55 PM
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gmggg wrote:
johnwesely wrote:
Has no one else noticed the immature attempt at humor in the title?

Don't blow the signal to noise man! We're supposed to be humorless now.

Oh yeah. Let me fix that.


kennoyce


Aug 17, 2010, 12:57 PM
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Re: [milesenoell] Nuts deep in a horizontal - avoiding edge loading of biner [In reply to]
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milesenoell wrote:
I have a hard time imagining what it was that I would have done wrong. The gear belongs to a friend of mine who's an engineer, and he was of the opinion that the swages on climbing gear were done with a hydraulic press rather than the bolt-cutter style crimper we were using. He also thought that contamination of the cable with some kind of lubricant could be a factor. We couldn't see anything different about the ones that failed (3 out of 30-ish).

Just out of curiosity, what type of sleeves were you using (aluminum, copper, stainless)? Also what was the cable type and size, and do you know how much the ones that broke held before breaking?

edit for spelling


(This post was edited by kennoyce on Aug 17, 2010, 1:23 PM)


subantz


Aug 17, 2010, 1:21 PM
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I have had my nuts deep in a nice warm hole. But never cross load. NEVER I believe that if you keep your nuts warm they place better. So have your partner keep the nuts in his mouth till your ready to send!

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