Socal wrote: « I cannot stress enough how important it is to close the system when top roping. I don't care if there is 40 feet of excess rope laying on the ground…This is one of my (many) lessons I teach when guiding..close the system… even when there is a an excess of rope on the ground… »

Not all guides are so wise. Last October, I had a day of guided climbing at Yosemite. Near the end of a day that had gone fine, the guide set up a top rope. Before I started to climb, I asked him to tie a knot in the rope. He said it wasn’t necessary as he always knew where the end of the rope was. I ceremoniously tied a big knot in the rope and told him that me feel more comfortable.

Cheers,
Rob.calm

are you visualizing what 10m are? It is almost 33 feet, some climbs are that tall. And having end-marks that(!!) close to the center of the rope will make it even more dangerous.

1m would be only enough to tie in to the harness.


"Backup" systems need to be by definition redundant. I don't see any redundancy in some visual mark at end of the rope relying on presumed attention of the belayer. A true backup would be a knot tied in or a second belayer.

Regardless, relying on the rope markers gives a false sense of security. If the belayer hasn't noticed the middle-mark passing through the belay device when the leader was climbing (and thus alerting of the possible issues with lowering off), why would one assume they would notice the end marks?

Someone should start making a bi-weave rope with 5m marks.

That way there is no way to mistake an end mark as the middle, and you get to have "you're getting to the end of your rope" marks.

I just made some company a million dollars. I want my royalty check!

Snipped out some stuff.


I understand your sentiment, and I also understand the guides position..

Unfortunately, this will be lost on the bulk of people on this site. They are gear happy, middle mark happy. Anything but taking any responsibility for their lack of experience and accountability.

Yes, very experienced climbers with decades of time under their belts screw up. But, when you look at the bulk of the accidents these days, it ain't 20+ year veteran climbers.

Expect another dozen or more responses informing all of us about the benefits of middle marks, rope marks, powdered glass shards embedded in the rope to remind us of how much rope is either in or out of the system and the benefits. They will post anything that will absolve them of their own incompetence.

....

If you have this attitude, may I thoughtfully suggest that you start reading Accidents in North American Mountaineering and have a little humbler attitude about safety.

cheers

sorry. mammut used to make a triodess http://www.justropes.com/...tegory.aspx?catid=50. looks like they stopped. i doubt it was because they made too much money with it...

"the last 7 meters of each end of the rope is clearly marked by a change of sheath weave pattern, similar to the midpoint of the rope."


See, that's the problem. The "end" marks are the same as the middle mark.

In my suggestion the middle mark is a change in sheath pattern and the end mark is a black mark on the rope... two completely different indicators that you can mistake for the other.

"A mark a meter or two from the end would be one more backup that would prevent a few poor sobs from making a dreadful mistake. "

You're funny. "End" markers have already been attributed to one death as it is. I would not be surprised to learn there have been more mistakes thanks to these "comfort" markers.

I've said it before, STOP relying on markers, and start paying attention. Close the system. Otherwise, your only other choice to stay "safe" is in the gym we you mostly likely belong.

I agree with this, but IMO, a 200-foot rope on a 50-foot single pitch climb (route height picked specifically to make the point) is, for all intents and purposes, closed. It bugged me no end that I could fail an AMGA exam for not tying off the far end in just such a situation.

If the notion of losing an end on lowering is 50-100' feet away from possible, I really don't bother. However, I consider it every single time -- that's my habit.

As far as incompetence goes... Let'us get rid of all the safety gear on power tools. Only an idiot would cut their hand off on a table saw. Let's get rid of airbags. Let quit double checking each other since only an idiot would not tie-in/double back correctly in the first place. Let's go back to swami-belts and hip belays, since only an idiot would drop a leader.

That's fair enough. I guess a lot of my pedantic babble about closing the system is more aimed at the beginner "experts" who now plague both climbing and the web. Believe me, I don't always do this either when I'm on my own with other experienced climbers. But, yes I do check to make sure there is more than enough rope on the ground.

The big problem here is that climbing has become infected by recreational climbers who really don't have a clue as to what they are doing, thus the end result can be bad. This is why I am so dogmatic about teaching this to my clients. I must repeat it 20 times a day, close the system, always know where the ends of your rope are.

As far as the AMGA test, I have VERY strong feelings for the way they conduct their exams. IMHO YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN FAILED FOR THAT. They love to fail people on their exams and then dress it up as being thorough.

If you totally blow a self rescue scenario or something major fine, but that was obviously not the case with you! Sorry to hear that. People I have talked to who failed for trivial reasons were so pissed about it they never went back to re-test. I don't blame them.

This analogy does not work. Wood can kick back in a table saw even though you did everything right (ever hit a nail?). Someone can run into you even though you're a safe driver. BUT, if you are paying attention like you're supposed to you will NEVER run out of rope and drop someone. Not because you're infallible, but because it is such a basic responsibility of the belayer to know how much rope is left.

Think about it this way: I've driven for 19 years and never hit anyone, but I know that doesn't mean I'm a perfect driver, or that I might never cause an accident. But I CAN guarantee this: I won't let go of the steering wheel, close my eyes, and drift into the other lane and hit someone head on. These duties are so fundamental to driving in my mind that it just isn't going to happen. Just like knowing how much rope is left is fundamental to belaying. People clearly aren't taking belaying responsibility seriously, and we've all seen it many times. I won't climb with those people, period. My 2c.

Oh, I didn't fail it. I closed the system just as required, but not without sufficient grumbling.

Oops, sorry. I must have mis-read your post. Which course was this by the way? The Top Rope Mgt. class, now known as the single pitch instructor course?

Yeah, that's the one. The cert is required for leading groups and guiding solo at the New.

I agree with this, but IMO, a 200-foot rope on a 50-foot single pitch climb (route height picked specifically to make the point) is, for all intents and purposes, closed. It bugged me no end that I could fail an AMGA exam for not tying off the far end in just such a situation.

If the notion of losing an end on lowering is 50-100' feet away from possible, I really don't bother. However, I consider it every single time -- that's my habit.

Therefore, there is only one answer, close the fucking system. Otherwise, stay at home.

My point was that no matter how strongly you preach this, it isn't going to happen. I know a lot of sport climbers, and have observed many others. You know how many "close the system" every time on a single-pitch sport route? None.

So, if the reality is that sport climber's aren't going to always "close the system," then isn't it pointless to keep telling them to do so. Wouldn't it make more sense to emphasize the importance of knowing the length of the route and their rope, and paying attention to where the end of the rope is while lowering (which, incidentally, is something both the lowerer and the loweree should do)?

Edit: While I'm on the subject, if you get lowered off the end of your rope, then four mistakes happened: (1) you didn't tie a knot in the rope, (2) neither did your partner, (3) you didn't pay attention to where the end of the rope was while being lowered, and (4) neither did your partner.

Jay

At the same time many single pitch sport climbers use rope bags/tarps so they "close the system" unknowingly

Edit: While I'm on the subject, if you get lowered off the end of your rope, then four mistakes happened: (1) you didn't tie a knot in the rope, (2) neither did your partner, (3) you didn't pay attention to where the end of the rope was while being lowered, and (4) neither did your partner.

My point was that no matter how strongly you preach this, it isn't going to happen. I know a lot of sport climbers, and have observed many others. You know how many "close the system" every time on a single-pitch sport route? None.

So, if the reality is that sport climber's aren't going to always "close the system," then isn't it pointless to keep telling them to do so. Wouldn't it make more sense to emphasize the importance of knowing the length of the route and their rope, and paying attention to where the end of the rope is while lowering (which, incidentally, is something both the lowerer and the loweree should do)?

Edit: While I'm on the subject, if you get lowered off the end of your rope, then four mistakes happened: (1) you didn't tie a knot in the rope, (2) neither did your partner, (3) you didn't pay attention to where the end of the rope was while being lowered, and (4) neither did your partner.

Jay