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redlude97


Sep 24, 2010, 8:44 AM
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Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks
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Saw this at RRC.com, biner with deep groove cuts a rope after a lead fall at the first bolt.
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...php?f=21&t=13270


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 8:57 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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Yow! That's a nasty groove! That's a biner that should have been retired long ago.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 8:57 AM)


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 9:31 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
Saw this at RRC.com, biner with deep groove cuts a rope after a lead fall at the first bolt.
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...php?f=21&t=13270

Well, that's an eye opener.

It is bizarre that the report goes into great detail about the quickdraw, but never mentions the brand, age, and condition of the rope.

As bad as that carabiner looks, there are a lot of biners out there just like that one. It seems a little strange that accidents like this have not happened more often. It'll be interesting to see if the investigators can reproduce the results.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 24, 2010, 9:34 AM)


iron106


Sep 24, 2010, 9:32 AM
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Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.


captainstatic


Sep 24, 2010, 9:35 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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That is a locked forum on RRC.com. The unlocked thread on this incident is http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...php?f=11&t=13271 and eventually includes pictures of the severed rope. Details of the accident are still under investigation. Please take note of what the owner of Muir Valley posted in this thread -

"Suggestion: Every time you climb, get into the habit of inspecting the fixed gear at the anchors and the stuff left hanging on the bolts. If it looks bad, either report it or replace it.

I hope we've made it profoundly clear in postings, waivers, warning signs, etc. that climbers should report any and all suspect gear found in Muir Valley to the owners. And, please do not take a magic marker and write a big note on the rock surface stating: "Do not climb here - loose bolt" as one visitor did. !?

Rick"



Partner drector


Sep 24, 2010, 9:43 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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Someone could file down a 'biner to match the one that caused the failure then use it in a pull test to see when it cuts the rope. it would not be very scientific but it could help people understand how this might affect them in the field.


redlude97


Sep 24, 2010, 9:50 AM
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Re: [drector] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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drector wrote:
Someone could file down a 'biner to match the one that caused the failure then use it in a pull test to see when it cuts the rope. it would not be very scientific but it could help people understand how this might affect them in the field.
IIRC pull tests are not as dynamic as a fall which may not give an accurate representation of the cutting force. I believe they are going to try and replicate the accident with the rope/biner in question


csproul


Sep 24, 2010, 9:57 AM
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Re: [iron106] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??


bigo


Sep 24, 2010, 9:58 AM
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Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
Saw this at RRC.com, biner with deep groove cuts a rope after a lead fall at the first bolt.
http://www.redriverclimbing.com/...php?f=21&t=13270

Well, that's an eye opener.

It is bizarre that the report goes into great detail about the quickdraw, but never mentions the brand, age, and condition of the rope.

As bad as that carabiner looks, there are a lot of biners out there just like that one. It seems a little strange that accidents like this have not happened more often. It'll be interesting to see if the investigators can reproduce the results.

Jay

Not really debating anything said in the above quote...

My wife took a relatively small lead fall onto a biner that looked very similar to that one at Maple Canyon. Our rope was less than one week old and the sheath was cut to the core. The sheath was not completely severed and the core was undamaged, but it required us to chop our brand new rope down 15' or so, that sucked.

Since then I have payed more attention to the fixed biners we are clipping and have found there are a lot of nasty sharply worn ones out there. The scenario that seems to lead to this kind of wear is a biner that is not fallen on or lowered on often and is under tension when a climber is lowered. This can be a draw that is shorter than than rest on a steep route, or a draw far off the plum line. Biners at the crux often have deep grooves worn in them but usually have softer edges. By extending fixed draws that are prone to this kind of wear, I think some of it can be mitigated.


(This post was edited by bigo on Sep 24, 2010, 10:07 AM)


redlude97


Sep 24, 2010, 9:59 AM
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Re: [csproul] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads


csproul


Sep 24, 2010, 10:05 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads
I've never heard such a thing...I guess I'll have to take your word for it. I'm not sure of the relevance here, since it is the rope that broke, not the carabiner.


moose_droppings


Sep 24, 2010, 10:07 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

So there not stronger.


dynosore


Sep 24, 2010, 10:09 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

Then why don't they make them that cross sectional profile in the first place? Do you have a link to the data? I'm intrigued.

Edit: iPhone autospeeling strykes agen


(This post was edited by dynosore on Sep 24, 2010, 10:11 AM)


newrivermike


Sep 24, 2010, 10:23 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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I've been predicting this occurence for a long time now and I'm glad it happened at the first bolt. Two things to be aware of here in addition to the obvious.

1. Watch out for fixed biners that incorporate an "I beam" or 'T-beam' type design in the bar stock. I don't know what they officially call this but many lightweight carabiners use it to shave weight. Petzl Spirits too. As they wear they carve into the thin section of metal and create a super sharp edge. This doesn't happen as severely on roundish bar stock carabiners like the BD hotwires or even standard ovals.

2. The most dangerous fixed carabiners are the first bolt and oftentimes biners that protect an easy section where no one ever falls or lowers. What happens is that the rope runs through the biner almost parallel to the rope bearing surface. The wear causes a flatness instead of a U shaped wear pattern. Very sharp.

I'm speculating but this accident was caused by three things. The flat worn edge due to the rope running parallel to the rope bearing surface, The carabiner being forged from 'T-stock' and finally, the hard fall generated when falling with a small amount of rope out.

I've gotten in the habit of roping up at the Red with 4 or 5 quicks even for fixed draw routes. Clipping my own when I see this stuff. These biners are EVERYWHERE! Seriously, be very careful.


(This post was edited by newrivermike on Sep 24, 2010, 10:27 AM)


jmeizis


Sep 24, 2010, 10:35 AM
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Re: [dynosore] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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I've noticed that some carabiner manufacturers have started making biners with more of a notch near the spine. Not sure if it's in response to the info about the worn carabiners. Anyways, here's something posted on BD's website about sharp biners: https://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/...ed-carabiner-en-glbl

Here's something about worn quickclips, not exactly the same but informative: http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/.../qc-lab-worn-anchors


redlude97


Sep 24, 2010, 12:03 PM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

So there not stronger.
??


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 12:12 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

So there not stronger.
??

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay


moose_droppings


Sep 24, 2010, 12:14 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

So there not stronger.
??

The rope is forced into the part of the biner that can take more of a load. The biner itself is not stronger.


Edit; Sorry Jay, your right. I just saw your post after I had already replied.


(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Sep 24, 2010, 12:16 PM)


bearbreeder


Sep 24, 2010, 12:15 PM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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when in doubt clip yr own draws


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 12:51 PM
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Re: [bearbreeder] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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I've never climbed in this area, and I don't sport climb all that much, but I have to ask?

WHY THE FUCK ARE SPORT ROUTES FIXED WITH DRAWS?

Rap rings I can understand. But I just don't get this.

Would someone explain this to me?


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 12:55 PM)


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 12:55 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
I've never climbed in this area, and I don't sport climb all that much, but I have to ask?

WHY THE FUCK ARE SPORT ROUTES FIXED WITH DRAWS?

Rap rings I can understand. But I just get this.

Would someone explain this to me?

It's so you don't have to put them up or take them down. Also, you can bail off the route safely and without sacrificing any gear.

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 24, 2010, 12:56 PM)


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 12:56 PM
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Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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Ok, so climbing has now sunk so low "climbers" don't even need to place gear.

Pathetic.


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 12:59 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
Ok, so climbing has now sunk so low "climbers" don't even need to place gear.

Pathetic.

Why should placing quickdraws be such an important part of climbing?

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 24, 2010, 3:26 PM)


kennoyce


Sep 24, 2010, 1:01 PM
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Re: [dynosore] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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dynosore wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

Then why don't they make them that cross sectional profile in the first place? Do you have a link to the data? I'm intrigued.

Edit: iPhone autospeeling strykes agen

They do.









There are just a few examples for you.


kennoyce


Sep 24, 2010, 1:03 PM
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Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
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socalclimber wrote:
Ok, so climbing has now sunk so low "climbers" don't even need to place gear.

Pathetic.

Try retrieving the draws on an extremely overhung sport climb then come back and tell us how pathetic the preplaced draws were.

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