Forums: Climbing Information: Accident and Incident Analysis:
Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks
RSS FeedRSS Feeds for Accident and Incident Analysis

Premier Sponsor:

 
First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next page Last page  View All


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 1:08 PM
Post #26 of 134 (5213 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2436

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (4 ratings)  
Can't Post

You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 1:15 PM)


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 1:22 PM
Post #27 of 134 (5191 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (6 ratings)  
Can't Post

socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I'm shocked that someone who has been in the sport as long as you has such a misunderstanding of sport climbing, even if you don't do much of it yourself. Here is the definition of sport climbing from wikipedia:

"Sport climbing is a style of rock climbing that relies on permanent anchors fixed to the rock, especially bolts, for protection, in contrast with traditional climbing, in which the rock is typically devoid of fixed anchors, and climbers must place removable protection as they climb. Since the need to place protection is virtually eliminated, sport climbing places an emphasis on gymnastic ability, strength and endurance, as opposed to adventure, risk and self-sufficiency. Since artificial means are used primarily for safety rather than to make upward progress, sport climbing is considered a form of free climbing."

The whole point of sport climbing is to minimize the need to fiddle with gear so that the climber is free to perform climbing movement at his physical limit. You should try it sometime. It's pretty fun.

Jay


kennoyce


Sep 24, 2010, 1:25 PM
Post #28 of 134 (5186 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2001
Posts: 1320

Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.

I consider myself more of a trad climber than a sport climber, and I agree with you that dealing with the gear is an essential part of TRAD climbing. Sport climbing on the other hand is about the difficulty, the moves, and pushing yourself physically without having to deal with all of the gear.



Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws.

edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it.


(This post was edited by kennoyce on Sep 24, 2010, 1:28 PM)


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 1:31 PM
Post #29 of 134 (5176 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2436

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (5 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I'm shocked that someone who has been in the sport as long as you has such a misunderstanding of sport climbing, even if you don't do much of it yourself. Here is the definition of sport climbing from wikipedia:

"Sport climbing is a style of rock climbing that relies on permanent anchors fixed to the rock, especially bolts, for protection, in contrast with traditional climbing, in which the rock is typically devoid of fixed anchors, and climbers must place removable protection as they climb. Since the need to place protection is virtually eliminated, sport climbing places an emphasis on gymnastic ability, strength and endurance, as opposed to adventure, risk and self-sufficiency. Since artificial means are used primarily for safety rather than to make upward progress, sport climbing is considered a form of free climbing."

The whole point of sport climbing is to minimize the need to fiddle with gear so that the climber is free to perform climbing movement at his physical limit. You should try it sometime. It's pretty fun.

Jay

That's what soloing is for.


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 1:34 PM
Post #30 of 134 (5171 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2436

Re: [kennoyce] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (3 ratings)  
Can't Post

kennoyce wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.

Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws.

edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it.

Obviously the route is over your head...

Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 1:36 PM
Post #31 of 134 (5163 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (5 ratings)  
Can't Post

socalclimber wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.

Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws.

edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it.

Obviously the route is over your head...

Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...

You need to get out of J Tree once in a while. ;)

Jay


(This post was edited by jt512 on Sep 24, 2010, 1:38 PM)


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 1:38 PM
Post #32 of 134 (5159 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2436

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.

Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws.

edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it.

Obviously the route is over your head...

Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...

You need to get out of J Tree once and a while. ;)

Jay

I won't argue with you on that one! Although I did get up to Tahquitz and Holcomb Valley this summer.


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 1:40 PM
Post #33 of 134 (5152 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (4 ratings)  
Can't Post

socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.

Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws.

edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it.

Obviously the route is over your head...

Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...

You need to get out of J Tree once and a while. ;)

Jay

I won't argue with you on that one! Although I did get up to Tahquitz and Holcomb Valley this summer.

If you're getting your ideas about sport climbing from Holcomb Valley, you're getting a really skewed view of the subject.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 1:45 PM
Post #34 of 134 (5146 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2436

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

Naw, just a fun place outta the summer heat to clip bolts and not die.


kennoyce


Sep 24, 2010, 1:49 PM
Post #35 of 134 (5130 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2001
Posts: 1320

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
kennoyce wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You have to be kidding me?

Part of climbing is dealing with the gear, short of soloing.

I now understand why it's sport climbers that are routinely decking and dumping their partners on the ground.

Oh, and as I all ready mentioned, try removing the draws from an extremely overhung sport climb and you might have a better idea of why they use perma-draws.

edit to add, it looks like Jay beat me to it.

Obviously the route is over your head...

Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...

You need to get out of J Tree once and a while. ;)

Jay

I won't argue with you on that one! Although I did get up to Tahquitz and Holcomb Valley this summer.

If you're getting your ideas about sport climbing from Holcomb Valley, you're getting a really skewed view of the subject.

Jay

Seriously, "overhung" routes at holcomb might be five feet in their thirty foot length (not that I don't enjoy holcomb).


socalclimber wrote:
Obviously the route is over your head...

Maybe a pair of aiders is in order...

It really has nothing to do with being over your head or not, but you are correct that a pair of aiders is about the only way to remove draws from very overhung routes.


dynosore


Sep 24, 2010, 1:58 PM
Post #36 of 134 (5119 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Jul 29, 2004
Posts: 1764

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:
redlude97 wrote:
csproul wrote:
iron106 wrote:
I don't think the groove was actually that bad. I think the only problem was the sharpness of the groove. Worn biners are usually stronger than new ones.
??
Worn biners have been shown to better concentrated the force along the spine and break at higher loads

So there not stronger.
??

Could we please not derail this thread with a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "stronger."

Jay

Good thing you never nitpick and derail threads, eh? Like all the time for instance. The ironing is thick today.....


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 2:00 PM
Post #37 of 134 (5113 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2436

Re: [kennoyce] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

"Seriously, "overhung" routes at holcomb might be five feet in their thirty foot length (not that I don't enjoy holcomb). "

I never said anything about over hanging routes at Holcomb. I just said I went there this summer to get out of the heat. You just implied it.


kennoyce


Sep 24, 2010, 2:05 PM
Post #38 of 134 (5102 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2001
Posts: 1320

Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

socalclimber wrote:
"Seriously, "overhung" routes at holcomb might be five feet in their thirty foot length (not that I don't enjoy holcomb). "

I never said anything about over hanging routes at Holcomb. I just said I went there this summer to get out of the heat. You just implied it.

I'm just trying to point out that the only "sport climbing" area you've been to recently is Holcomb where nothing is overhung. Until you try climbing something that is truly very overhung you will never understand the importance of perma-draws. I am implying that you have never climbed anything that is severely overhung which may be incorrect, but I doubt it.


majid_sabet


Sep 24, 2010, 2:10 PM
Post #39 of 134 (5095 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8368

Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (5 ratings)  
Can't Post

this is nothing new however, sport climbers have a tendency to leave QD every where they go and overall,they have a bad reputation on inspecting their TR system.

Inspect your lifeline and equipment every time you climb.


kennoyce


Sep 24, 2010, 2:16 PM
Post #40 of 134 (5088 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Mar 6, 2001
Posts: 1320

Re: [majid_sabet] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

majid_sabet wrote:
this is nothing new however, sport climbers have a tendency to leave QD every where they go and overall,they have a bad reputation on inspecting their TR system.

Inspect your lifeline and equipment every time you climb.

This is true. What we should take away from this accident is that we need to inspect perma-draws before we trust our lives to them. Just take a half a second and look at the draw you are clipping before the rope is blocking your view of the possible sharp edges. If it's not sharp clip it and go, if it is sharp, place your own draw.


minibiter


Sep 24, 2010, 2:28 PM
Post #41 of 134 (5073 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Oct 22, 2007
Posts: 122

Re: [redlude97] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

This one was pulled of a climb at Roadside earlier this year... Injury averted!



Edit! My bad, it was pulled off 40oz to Freedom at the Motherload. By the time I saw it we were at Roadside. See Mike's post here:

http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=2397349#2397349


(This post was edited by minibiter on Sep 27, 2010, 3:17 PM)
Attachments: 28809_422198333972_686743972_5486694_2903248_n.jpg (27.7 KB)


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 2:31 PM
Post #42 of 134 (5067 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2436

Re: [kennoyce] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

kennoyce wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
"Seriously, "overhung" routes at holcomb might be five feet in their thirty foot length (not that I don't enjoy holcomb). "

I never said anything about over hanging routes at Holcomb. I just said I went there this summer to get out of the heat. You just implied it.

I'm just trying to point out that the only "sport climbing" area you've been to recently is Holcomb where nothing is overhung. Until you try climbing something that is truly very overhung you will never understand the importance of perma-draws. I am implying that you have never climbed anything that is severely overhung which may be incorrect, but I doubt it.

Yup, this is true. Actually, from that photo I'm now convinced the perma-draw is a really bad idea. I've never seen caribiner wear that severe before.

I can only imagine what other time bombs like that one are out there. And if this is no big deal in the totally rad "sport climbing" world, you can have it.

That level of wear is just insane. How could nobody have noticed that?


majid_sabet


Sep 24, 2010, 2:36 PM
Post #43 of 134 (5062 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Dec 12, 2002
Posts: 8368

Re: [minibiter] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (2 ratings)  
Can't Post

if sport climbers are too lazy to inspect their life support system, i would suggest replacing the top biner with heavy duty steel biner or steel shackle or something like that so it could last longer.

Still , you need to inspect your gear every time and disengage the autopilot mentality while climbing. There are no such thing as "safe climbing environment" and all it takes is one doo doo to end up six feet under dirt.


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 2:40 PM
Post #44 of 134 (5058 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [majid_sabet] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (5 ratings)  
Can't Post

majid_sabet wrote:
if sport climbers are too lazy to inspect their life support system, i would suggest replacing the top biner with heavy duty steel biner or steel shackle or something like that so it could last longer.

Try and keep up, Majid. It's not the top biners that are the problem. It's the lower ones, especially (probably) the first.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 2:43 PM
Post #45 of 134 (5053 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2436

Re: [majid_sabet] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear.

Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea.

I am speaking about the lower biner.

Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years?


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 2:45 PM)


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 2:48 PM
Post #46 of 134 (5041 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (4 ratings)  
Can't Post

socalclimber wrote:
You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear.

Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea.

I am speaking about the lower biner.

Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years?

They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 2:52 PM
Post #47 of 134 (5037 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2436

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (1 rating)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear.

Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea.

I am speaking about the lower biner.

Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years?

They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly.

Jay

Then maybe steel biners are the way to go. I'm still astonished by a) the level of wear, and b) nobody seemed to notice it before.

Obviously people have been lowering off that thing for years. I have biners closing in on 20 years old that are worn, but no even remotely close to that.

Majid has made some very solid points here. It is unbelievable to me that nobody noticed this long ago, or did anything about it.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Sep 24, 2010, 2:53 PM)


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 2:55 PM
Post #48 of 134 (5030 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (4 ratings)  
Can't Post

socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear.

Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea.

I am speaking about the lower biner.

Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years?

They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly.

Jay

Then maybe steel biners are the way to go. I'm still astonished by a) the level of wear, and b) nobody seemed to notice it before.

Obviously people have been lowering off that thing for years. I have biners closing in on 20 years old that are worn, but no even remotely close to that.

I've never seen one as far gone as that one above either. At non-gumby crags (which rules out most of SoCal) the top biners aren't fixed to the chains, and when they get too worn, someone will just switch them out.

Jay


socalclimber


Sep 24, 2010, 3:00 PM
Post #49 of 134 (5020 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Nov 27, 2001
Posts: 2436

Re: [jt512] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (0 ratings)  
Can't Post

jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear.

Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea.

I am speaking about the lower biner.

Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years?

They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly.

Jay

Then maybe steel biners are the way to go. I'm still astonished by a) the level of wear, and b) nobody seemed to notice it before.

Obviously people have been lowering off that thing for years. I have biners closing in on 20 years old that are worn, but no even remotely close to that.

I've never seen one as far gone as that one above either. At non-gumby crags (which rules out most of SoCal) the top biners aren't fixed to the chains, and when they get too worn, someone will just switch them out.

Jay

Well that seems like a reasonable idea.


jt512


Sep 24, 2010, 3:03 PM
Post #50 of 134 (5014 views)
Shortcut

Registered: Apr 11, 2001
Posts: 21893

Re: [socalclimber] Rope severed by worn carabiner at RRG, climber decks [In reply to]
Report this Post
Average: avg_1 avg_2 avg_3 avg_4 avg_5 (5 ratings)  
Can't Post

socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
jt512 wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
You know, that might not be the worst idea in the world. If the draws are fixed, then using steel biners would last forever and not suffer this kind of wear.

Since they aren't going to carry them with them on the route, and they are going to clip and go, might just be a good idea.

I am speaking about the lower biner.

Since we are on the topic, how much wear do the top biners get from being on the bolt for years?

They get a lot, and have to be replaced regularly.

Jay

Then maybe steel biners are the way to go. I'm still astonished by a) the level of wear, and b) nobody seemed to notice it before.

Obviously people have been lowering off that thing for years. I have biners closing in on 20 years old that are worn, but no even remotely close to that.

I've never seen one as far gone as that one above either. At non-gumby crags (which rules out most of SoCal) the top biners aren't fixed to the chains, and when they get too worn, someone will just switch them out.

Jay

Well that seems like a reasonable idea.

Unfortunately, it only works at crags where the local climbing population is sophisticated enough to understand that the biners aren't "booty," again ruling out most of SoCal.

Jay

First page Previous page 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next page Last page  View All

Forums : Climbing Information : Accident and Incident Analysis

 


Search for (options)

Log In:

Username:
Password: Remember me:

Go Register
Go Lost Password?
$195.26 (10% off)
$6.26 (10% off)
$8.96 (10% off)
$1.35 (10% off)



Follow us on Twiter Become a Fan on Facebook