Good thing you never nitpick and derail threads, eh? Like all the time for instance. The ironing is thick today.....

I'd have to agree with the irony here.

Seems like the discussion about prehung draws and grass roots of sport climbing is more on topic than the strength of a biner, much like the one that broke in the OP.

I'd have to agree with the irony here.

This one was pulled of a climb at Roadside earlier this year... Injury averted!

Which biner broke?

I misspoke, there was no broken biner

Nope, but the rope sure was.

I'm sorry, but this whole thing is just stupid. I'm still at a loss to understand how this happened. There is no need for "analysis" of the rope. The people involved yes, but the gear, no!

For once, Robert, I have to disagree with you. There is little, if anything unusual about the people in this incident, or what they were doing. In all likelihood, this could have happened to any sport climber. In contrast, the condition of the rope and the gear, and the mechanics of the accident are what we need to learn more about.

Between the link to the BD testing provided by jmeizis and newrivermike's incisive observations, a highly plausible explanation for this accident is beginning to emerge. According to newrivermike, sharp edges on the rope-end carabiner of a fixed draw can develop if the draw is often under tension with the rope running relatively unbent though the carabiner. This is likely to happen at the first bolt, because belayers often stand a few feet away from the wall while lowering their partner. In addition, according to BD, rope damage over a sharp edge is more likely to occur when the fall-factor is high or the catch static. Now, the first bolt just happens to be where the highest fall factor falls are likely to occur as well as where the belayer is least likely to give a dynamic belay. Add in the fact that the carabiner used "T-bar" construction, which amplifies the sharpness of the edge, and that the groove appeared to be worn to the worst possible depth, the apex of the "T," and it starts to look like this accident took place under exactly the sort of perfect-storm conditions required.

Jay

Not that I disagree with you, but I bet there are more bolts and fixed gear in Muir Valley (not to mention the rest of RRG) than in all of JT.

Hmmm.

Well I read that earlier in the thread. I still have a number of issues with this. First off, Mike clearly stated that he will carry extra draws with him due to the very problem that caused this accident. He even goes on to say that these time bombs are everywhere and knew this was gonna happen to someone eventually.

This tells me Mike has a functioning brain. For god sakes, I've cleaned and replaced old copper heads that were in better condition than either of those two biners. What astounds me is that nobody has bothered to fix the problem and continued to climb on them anyway.

Rule #1 in climbing is NEVER BLINDLY TRUST FIXED GEAR. INSPECT IT. I don't care what it is, fixed pin, fixed draw, stuck cam, whatever.

I gotta go to work, but:

Time for devils advocate. What if the first draw on this route, and others are being stick clipped? In other words, people are not leading up to them, clipping and moving on.

I'd ask dynosore to provide some examples of the nit picking he's accusing me of, except that I'm not willing to unkillfile him to see his inability to respond.

Jay

On the other hand, if every sport route with fixed draws was equipped a dedicated cleaning bolt, and everybody used it, then the problem of the first actual protection bolt (ie, the second bolt) becoming sharp would be solved. The wear due to lowering would occur on the cleaning bolt's draw, never gets fallen on. The problem is getting everybody to clip the lowering bolt.

(A lowering bolt is one that is intended to be clipped from the ground, and unclipped from the ground after the leader has cleaned the other draws while lowering off. It's too low to be part of the protection system. Its only use use is to facilitate cleaning.)

Then, as far as I can see, the situation would be exactly the same. On the other hand, if every sport route with fixed draws was equipped a dedicated cleaning bolt, and everybody used it, then the problem of the first actual protection bolt (ie, the second bolt) becoming sharp would be solved. The wear due to lowering would occur on the cleaning bolt's draw, never gets fallen on. The problem is getting everybody to clip the lowering bolt.

(A lowering bolt is one that is intended to be clipped from the ground, and unclipped from the ground after the leader has cleaned the other draws while lowering off. It's too low to be part of the protection system. Its only use use is to facilitate cleaning.)

Jay

That's an interesting idea. Does this system interfere with giving a good dynamic belay? I can envision scenarios where a low draw in the system would cause problems when catching a fall.

Jay, not having encountered what I recognize as a lowering bolt, I'm envisioning this as primarily something to keep you in close to overhanging rock during the lower, but not something useful on more vertical terrain?

That thing has disaster written all over it.

I'm not talking about breaking the biner. I talking about sharp edges cutting the rope which appears to be the case here. I'm still having a problem that anybody cannot tell that the biner in question had the potential for causing a big problem.

You can dress this up with all the excuses you want. If this is the state of the union with regards to sport climbing, then there is a real problem.

There is no excuse based on how rad, bitch'n and cool sport climbing is.

That biner has bad shit written all over it.

What part do you not understand here? First bolt. High fall factor. Badly worn biner with sharp edges.

Rope cut.

Simple, I see gear like that, I'm not trusting my life to it.

First bolt, clearly worn biner with sharp edge, rope cut.